We Discuss Everything, Why Not This?

Big Daddy · Mar 4, 2004

MyHarley, well said and I concur with your thoughts. Before I go any further let me compliment everyone who has posted here. You have all stated your thoughts well and there has been no flaming or bashing...good thread and good people.

We cannot seem to pinpoint the exact start of the problem, even though we all concur that things changed...most likely around the 60's - 70's. Notice too today that nothing is our fault, no one is held responsible. Look at our court systems, we do not try a case based on the issue or crime at hand, now we muddy the water with how honest or dishonest is the cop? Did he/she do everything exactly right, what happened to was the crime committed by the accused or not!

There have been a lot of thoughts stated here and I for one am learning and thinking deeply about where I am headed and what I can do to help. I thank each of you for your input.

Bryan330i · Mar 4, 2004

MyHarley said:

I agree! Why no prison time for fetal torture? Torture may seem strong but when you look up the effects, short-term and life long, of drugs and alcohol it cannot be called anything else.

I am all for prison time to correct these problems that makes people think first.

I am also for a minimum divorce time of at least two years with a significant amount of proof required. Again, think first.

Bryan330i · Mar 4, 2004

Big Daddy said:

MyHarley, well said and I concur with your thoughts. Before I go any further let me compliment everyone who has posted here. You have all stated your thoughts well and there has been no flaming or bashing...good thread and good people.

We cannot seem to pinpoint the exact start of the problem, even though we all concur that things changed...most likely around the 60's - 70's. Notice too today that nothing is our fault, no one is held responsible. Look at our court systems, we do not try a case based on the issue or crime at hand, now we muddy the water with how honest or dishonest is the cop? Did he/she do everything exactly right, what happened to was the crime committed by the accused or not!

There have been a lot of thoughts stated here and I for one am learning and thinking deeply about where I am headed and what I can do to help. I thank each of you for your input.

Very good points! Sometimes I think I get too caught up in a quick fix way of thinking, probably because the scope of the problems seems so overwhelming.

Everyone has excellent input.

Kirby · Mar 4, 2004

Various Quotes:

My last note...........do you realize that in this country we have no consequences for immoral or unethical actions regarding our children or spouses................where are the consequences???

Notice too today that nothing is our fault, no one is held responsible. Look at our court systems, we do not try a case based on the issue or crime at hand, now we muddy the water with how honest or dishonest is the cop?

I am also for a minimum divorce time of at least two years with a significant amount of proof required. Again, think first.

The common thread is indeed about responsibility - understanding actions and consequences. The consequences today are either insignificant (i.e. non-fault divorce) or ignored and blame is shifted (the psychological impact of divorce, fetal alcohol syndrome, child abuse, court cases). Parents MUST take responsibility for their children and in turn teach that skill to them. IMHO fixing that would make HUGE differences in SO many parts of life.

Sometimes we can make a difference, though. Several years ago my company hired an inner city African American teen as a co-op student working in our electrical fab shop. When he started, he was sullen, a little bit of a chip on his shoulder, lots of bad attitude. As we all worked with him, and we got to know each other, things changed. He was a very bright hard working guy who had lived a horrible life. His mom was a drug addict, many times he got up in the morning to find mom passed out on the floor, naked, with 2 or 3 guys. After he made some money working with us, he bought his first very own possession - a TV and PlayStation II. He locked it in his room, but 5 days later his mom broke the door down and sold it for drug money. A few weeks later he woke up to the sound of police raiding the house for drugs at 2 AM.

One day he told us that working with us he had seen a new world - one that he never thought he could join. He decided he HAD to leave his mom's world but FIRST he needed to graduate from high school. He enlisted in the Marines, made it through boot camp, got married and has a child he is proud of. He made it. He learned responsibility and where it could take him.

If more adults would take responsibility and teach responsibility, it would be huge.

Abdoman · Mar 5, 2004

While I do agree with MyHarley, men and women have lost their place, women are just as much to blame. Out of all of my close divorced friends, including myself, all of these divorces were instigated by the women. It seems that women are no longer satified in being a housewife or fullfilled by being a mother.

Because of the things my ex got into, we are divorced and I have custody of my daughter. I love my daughter - she means more to me than anything and it absolutely killed me to have to take her from a complete family. Sometimes, especially in my case, a child will have a better life without the other parent continual influence.

I have found it very rare to meet a woman willing to stay home, and just as rare for a man to agree to it. We are a society always wanting more - nicer cars, nicer homes more stuff that we don't need. The family takes two jobs to keep the extra stuff and the family suffers. Parents are no longer there to provide the type of role model and the discipline that children need.

I could go on and on. This country will not change until our family values change.

Bryan330i · Mar 5, 2004

I agree Abdoman. I am just not sure how we would do this?

I myself have been divorced and it is one of the most embarrassing things in my life. I was married in my early twenties to someone from school. She was from a very wealthy, southern republican family that preached values. However, when SHE decided SHE wanted a divorce for no good reason, there was a fleet of attorneys at her feet.

She later told me that I just needed to give her time to “get [her] head on straight.” Basically, she wanted time to be with other guys; not that marriage stopped her from that. Anyway, she has now been divorced 4 times and daddy is always there with the attorneys.

Funny thing is, when I got to know this family, I found they had very loose morals. However, they really tried to play a much different part.

MyHarley · Mar 5, 2004

I do agree that women have to share the blame......but I dont agree that a woman has to stay at home to get the job done. My mother raised three kids while working full time and is now retiring as a Vice President. My parents were not divorced until I was a senior in high school. We had a home cooked breakfast every morning and dinner every night together, this was a requirement. As they say, she did it all...........and for that all three of us kids are grateful.........

Women of today do need more stimulation than being mothers and wives........

As for the comment about women being the cause of the divorce, probably true in cases, but I see that most men cheat in their marriage.......become complacent in their marriage and forget that women are more than wives and mothers...........men are forever on a hunt..........

In all of my relationships and my one and only marriage ever to be, I have yet to have one relationship where the man did not cheat. I'm keeping track of that statistic......... [rofl]

.........

Bryan330i · Mar 5, 2004

MyHarley said:

men are forever on a hunt..........

I do not agree. I have only been involved with 2 women in my life (both involved marriage) and found no need for anything more. However, my previous wife could not stay out of bed with other men. In the end, she proceeded to tell me how many others she had been with throughout our years of knowing each other.

I was reading somewhere that it is about 50/50 on cheating.

indy_85stariones · Mar 6, 2004

Yesterday, I was going to post something like this...

Because God loves us first, we are able to love those around us. Love thy neighbor...

It sounded so hollow and cliche that I deleted the post. I decided to reread this thread this morning...

That's it. Once again, this country is mired in a leadership crisis.

We look to the government only to learn that both parties put their own interests above those of its people.

We look to talk radio only to learn that the hosts use their talk shows to promote themselves.

We look to charities only to learn that less than 50% of our donations actually make it to the intended recepients.

For anyone interested, Charles Colson wrote several good books on this topic...
"Kingdoms in Conflict", "Against the Night", and "How Now Shall We Live?"

I would suggest blowing the dust off of their grandmother's Bible and
start reading it -- alternating between New and Old Testaments -- perhaps starting with the Gospel of John. But being realistic, who is going to do that?

At best, I would hope that someone would go to their neighborhood library and check out C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity".

Maybe Mel Gibson had it right afterall. I swear that I saw "Love Thy Neighbor" flash in the sub-titles at least 5 times. Just as to renew hope and provide encouragement for Bryan and his wife to continue finding homes for foster children, for Kirby whose company hired an inner city African American teen, and for myself who quit his $60K job to order to keep his mother out of a nursing home and find homes for her Arabian Horses.

A link to the new owners website...
http://whitepegasus.faithweb.com/Horses/page9.html

Big Daddy · Mar 6, 2004

Vey good information, I like this thread. Responding to some of the issues, and I know we are all different in some ways, but then again we are all human. My wife and I have been married 25 years, not always "happy", but dedicated and sincere. I have never had an affair and do not want one. I see cheating as 50/50 as well, I mean come on it takes two, so it can't be all men and one woman... I know many couples who have been divorced, cheated, and many using marriage as a tool to get possessions. You cannot fill an empty heart with worldy possessions.

My wife was a stay at home Mom until our youngest was 12. We lived on my megar income for many years and got by. We were not driving BMW's then and our home was about 1000 sq. feet. After she finished college with a degree in math she went to work. We never owned a BMW until I was about 42 years old, and that is when we bought a 3000sq. foot home.

Keep the good info coming.

Ghost · Mar 6, 2004

Once when I was about six, I was upset about the actions (lack there of) of my father and I said, “I hate him.” My mother went ballistic. “He’s still you father, you respect him!” she yelled (she followed the commandments). That one comment rung very loud, it neutralized a lot of anger within me, taught me that respect and love are two different things and most of all family is family, no matter what the circumstance. In the city I often hear single parents demean, insult, and curse about the “other” parent to their children. IMO this only breeds anger and hate into the child and at a certain point the child will find a need to express this anger in a variety of ways. I also believe that a person should be accountable for their actions. I could have been like my father, but I chose not to make excuses about my situation and do something about it.

I agree there should be stiffer consequences for the things people do. Some may not agree, but those cultures and governments that are along the lines of dismemberment may have something. If you have been told and know that if you get caught stealing something your hand will be severed off, how many people do you think would it? Not to mention a decrease in repeat offenders. I think people look at things and try to place a value on their actions, “oh, it’s not that bad, I’ll do it just once.” Value is relative; one person may not think it to be wrong however the victim may feel differently. Like weather, I may not think it’s cold, yet someone from a warmer climate might find it severely cold and someone from a colder climate might find us both silly.

As far as cheating, IMO each man/woman can resist the temptation. Will: the determination to know that you can, Power: the possession of control that knows when you shouldn’t. Too many people say they ‘can’t resist.’ Can’t was one of the words we weren’t allowed to use while growing up. “If one man can do it, I can do it.”

I was raised in neighborhoods ranging from the inner city, to the extremely rich, never asked my mom for money, started working at thirteen, put myself through college, first in the family get a BSEE (electronics engineering). Not my current field and I could be making a lot more money just looking out for myself, but I help make the world a safer place. Now I own a building where a struggling family of four lives in one apartment and the mother of the wife lives in another apartment for much less than the apartments are worth. I may not be doing as much as many of you commendable people that I greatly respect, but I do what I can, where I can. Words that I live by “If every person helps their neighbor no person will be without help.”

frolf · Mar 6, 2004

THE_GHOST said:

signage on that dude. divorce is that cirlce of death our society is caught in that it can't get out of. so much so that they make marriage, which in most religions is a holy thing, and f-ing reality show. that is why our society will plummet, is because people don't respect anything that doesn't have dollar signs hung around it.

it started with some sort of extreme abuse, i'm sure. and divorce was necessary. then it went to people getting a divorce over extramarital affairs. then it kept getting softer, but still, there were good reasons to get a divorce. domestic abuse, affiars, all sorts of things. now it is at its worse, before you even have a chance to get divorced people dive into marriage knowing that 'hey, if anything comes up half my college buddies are divorce attornys.'

now see, this isn't a super big deal i dont' think, but when you have KIDS and a FAMILY. AND THEN RUIN EVERYTHING BY BEING A WEAK PERSON, that is when i have beef with you, and that is when i hope people like that pay.

it is just to easy to give up these days.

-end rant-

donmbmw · Mar 6, 2004

WOW! I was gone a couple of days, came back to check the board and ................WOW! Did this thread take off. Kudos to Lisha, you really know how to start the juices flowing. Kudos to all contributors. I can't think of another board I've ever been involved with where such controversial and often deeply personal posts have been treated with such maturity, repsect, and insight. [thumb]

A quick summary of my thoughts on some of the additional subtopics:
Gay marriage - Call it what you wish, if two people love each other and wish to make the commitment, well thats their business. They should be able to make the bond legal. Homosexuality has been here since the dawn of recorded history (check the bible). Anything that stigmatizes people is a negative. I truly do not understand all the furor over this issue. I do not feel that my commitment to my wife is less meaningful because same sex couples choose to say they are married.
Abortion - A very personal choice that a woman should be free to make.
Adoption - Any good home is better for a child than any institution.
Infidelity - It's no doubt true that more men cheat than women, but I think you gals are catching up.
I would love to end this post with a joke or other light hearted comment, but nothing comes to mind. Great thread.

Bryan330i · Mar 7, 2004

donmbmw said:

Good points donmbmw!

I think it should be required that everyone visit institutions where children are housed. Perhaps in high school.

I bet some things would change.

Big Daddy · Mar 7, 2004

That would help. I remember taking a tour of a jail as a kid and I told myself I never wanted to be there, therefore I have not (at least not as an imate)! It would be nice if we could viritual tour the bad things of life, divorce, war, jail, etc, for all young kids then maybe they would make up their minds to avoid those things.

Ghost · Mar 7, 2004

Ounce of prevention, I agree; I’ve read that some drunk drivers are taken to the morgue to show the consequences of drunk driving.

donmbmw · Mar 7, 2004

I think these tours can be educational, but I'm not sure of the lasting impact. I'm thinking of cigarettes. Everyone has seen vivid images of the horrors of cancer etc. yet smoking seems to be comming back in style. Go figure.

Kirby · Mar 7, 2004

Bryan330i said:

Several years ago my kids spent an afternoon and evening preparing and serving food at a homeless shelter for abused women and their children. It definitely had an impact on their life.

Kirby · Mar 7, 2004

donmbmw said:

As a physician, my wife has seen lung cancer in cadavers in medical school, surgery and end-life patients in her care. She often says that she would love to take high school kids that smoke and show them the results in person. Pictures are one thing, actually seeing a diseased lung up close or someone on a ventilator who will die in a few weeks sends a much stronger message.

But then again, as you point out, a friend of ours is a nurse and smokes 2 packs a day....[???1]

adrean8j · Mar 7, 2004

Is it not curious that most of these problems our society is having are mostly predominant in the most "advance" cultures in the world? America, England, Canada?
As far as gay marriage is concerned....I dont think you can get "married" per-say, at least not in Germany, but it is not...hmmm made as big a deal of. "Most" european think of it as "quirky" but most would also say that it is not "normal" either.
Back to our societal problems....I think it did start happening in the late 60's and 70's.....with the equal rights movement to be exact......Originally it set the ball rolling in the right direction but then it became "If they have rights, then we have right too...and so do they, and so do they, and so them over there....that whole what about my rights attitude. Sometimes I think that we as American have too much freedom and it gets abused........ok enough cotemplating I gotta get to bed and I have never used the " key so much in my life. [:D]

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