We Discuss Everything, Why Not This?

MyHarley · Mar 3, 2004

I always appreciate others' opinions and totally respect those opinions............actually I respect a person more who will stand up for their convictions without fear of persecution by others. Its all good Big Daddy.............actually I wish I was born in an era without all the issues of today, even with all my high maintenance tendencies, I would of been happier in simpler times.

Big Daddy · Mar 3, 2004

Amen, me too!

Ghost · Mar 3, 2004

I agree with you both.

IMO

Abortion is not a form of birth control.
Divorce is not a form of marriage counseling.
Gay marriage – to each his/her own- is like a parent laying their child to rest. It happens but it is unnatural.

Big Daddy I agree, what happens when the rate increases exponentially, how will this adversely affect the population?

indy_85stariones · Mar 4, 2004

Actually we do. All we need to do is look at what is going on over on the other side of the Atlantic ocean and watch our friends over in Europe.

Several studies have been conducted in countries in Europe. You will never hear about them, because their findings are very unpopular in this country -- not what people want to hear. The accumulated effect of no-fault divorce and civil unions have watered-down the benefits of traditional marriage. Children in European nations live in an evironment of sequential cohabitation. A child's father being whoever their mother's live-in boyfriend is at the moment.

Bryan330i · Mar 4, 2004

I can listen to all types of views, but unfortunately, many cannot and are narrow-minded on these issues. Narrow-minded- “lacking in tolerance or breadth of vision” (Webster.com).

With a continual growth of institutionalized chidden how can we not look at ways to become more tolerant of differences and expand or vision to include other alternatives? What we are doing is simply not working. Furthermore, there are those who support the restriction of parent planning activities and also abortion yet they are the first people to hang the “menaces to society" at 18. If we are going to dictate the way the world lives we need to pony up the support for our decisions.

Florida has one of the worst systems in the nation, and the children that fill the system are not related to immigration. State officials have little idea were many children even reside. Yet they are unwilling to formalize an adoption to parents that have a significant history with the children, children that are vastly improved in all aspects of their lives since their introduction into the family. In addition, there is significant evidence that shows beyond any doubt that a significant improvement exists in self-worth perception, school performance, societal awareness and respect for others when children have been placed in gay homes for as little as 1-2 years over the foster care system.

Furthermore, Texas has executed a number of these children of such earlier concern. When does it end?

Yes, narrow-mindedness is the problem, we need greater tolerance and breadth of vision or this problem is only going to get worse.

http://www.lethimstay.com/

Bryan330i · Mar 4, 2004

indy_85stariones said:

Yes, narrow-mindedness is the problem, we need greater tolerance or breadth of vision or this problem is only going to get worse.

What is it something like two-thirds of children in the US DOES NOT live with their biological mother and father? What kind of sanctity is this?

Perhaps we need to start being more concerned for the children and less concerned with forcing our ideas on everyone. What we are doing now does not work.

I am not supporting gay marriage, but we need some type of legally binding contract for these relationships for the benefit of the children in these relationships.

indy_85stariones · Mar 4, 2004

All of us know what system for raising children works -- traditional marriage. Children know who their parents are. Children know who their grand-parents are. Children know who their brothers, sisters, and cousin are. Look at the people who are successful in life, the vast majority of them have the advantage of having the security of a strong family. For example, Sam Walton. His sons and daughters rank among the top ten wealthest people in the world. Each of them having a net worth of $20 billion.

Traditional marriage provides a safety net whenever the unexpected bumps in life (e.g. loss of job, sickness, tempoary disability, etc) are encountered. However, that safety net requires each member of the family owning and living up to their given responsibilties.

Nah -- that's too much work. Nah -- that's too narrow-minded. Yeah, let's open up our minds like our friends over in Europe.

Just for giggles, I am going to use a ridiculeous analogy.

All of us know that BMW are great handling sports cars. However, I don't want to save the necessary amount of money required to purchase one of these cars -- so I buy a Honda instead. Well that didn't work (it doesn't handle as well as a BMW), so maybe I put on a rear wing. Well that didn't work, so maybe I'll put on coil-overs and lower the suspension. Well that didn't work, so maybe I'll put on a body kit. Well that didn't work, so maybe I'll put on VTEC badging and decals. No, let me open my mind a little more, so I'll put on BMW M3 badging.

No matter what I do to my Honda, it will never be able to handle as well as a BMW. The same with family models. You can pick and choose whatever family model you want, but it will never perform as well as the traditional family model.

Why do we refuse to make efforts to build up the traditional family model? Instead, we neglect it and then wonder why it doesn't work anymore.

Bryan330i · Mar 4, 2004

I have hundreds of true stories of death and despair that make a gay household look like paradise. If you are interested in specifics for a state or region let me know and I can email you information. Always looking to get people involved, and turning our back does not make it go away, nor does it wash away the tax bill.

A Tale of Two Sisters
TWO SISTERS in Miami-Dade County who were in foster care limbo for 13 years are suing Florida. Their story demonstrates the consequences of incompetence in a bureaucracy that cares for about 2500 children in Miami-Dade County with an annual budget of over $317 million. The lawsuit is called Two Forgotten Children vs. the State of Florida. A senior judge has come out of retirement to preside over the case.

“Melinda” and “Karina” entered the foster-care system in June 1986 when someone found them wandering alone in a city park. They were 4 and 2. Their father was in prison. Their mother disappeared but eventually turned up dead in 1995.

Within a few months that first year the teenage son of one foster family sexually molested 3-year-old Karina. The state sent them to separate homes. They wouldn’t see each other again for three years.

Melinda was 9 the first time she tried to kill herself. She tried to stick a fork into her head. She had been raped. She had syphilis. Between January 1989 and March 1990 Melinda was repeatedly raped at a foster home where a previous child had complained about fondling. That home was closed in 1991. Karina, too, said she had been beaten and sexually abused.

The girls moved in and out of more than 30 foster homes over the years. Florida’s child welfare system failed to give them the one thing that would have given them the best chance at a decent and productive life: a real family.

Now in their teens, both girls have children. Both can read only at elementary school levels.

One final irony:
MELINDA AND KARINA may never see any of the money that a jury might award them because Florida’s Agency for Health Care Administration has placed a lien on the future assets of both. The agency wants to be repaid for the more than $700,000 spent on residential care over the years.

Ghost · Mar 4, 2004

indy_85stariones said:

I don’t agree totally. I was raised in a single parent family. From personal experience, IMO it’s not the traditional marriage that creates great children it’s a family that instills positive morals and cares for each other no matter what the circumstance and loves unconditionally.

Since we’re all entitled to our opinion, for me, bottom line:
I have a family member that is gay, I may not agree with their actions, but I won’t stop loving them because of it.

Abdoman · Mar 4, 2004

Wow - great opinions, but here's mine:

If we all lived as Christians, the world WOULD be a better place.

Bryan330i · Mar 4, 2004

THE_GHOST said:

And the traditional families are not stepping up to the plate to take on some of these difficult children.

Big Daddy · Mar 4, 2004

"If we all lived as Christians, the world WOULD be a better place." I agree with you. Take into account that this country was founded on Christian beliefs and add to that that we have slowly let men in black robes remove Christ from our country. Isn't is amazing that as we turn our backs on the founding principals of this country and Christ we slowly are slipping into who knows what?

frolf · Mar 4, 2004

Abdoman said:

i am Christian, and i kind of disagree. i have respect for many faiths, and i know that I can not go to someone and prove to them their religion is wrong, just as they cannot prove to me that Jesus was nothing.

I'm all for divirsity, as long as its peaceful

indy_85stariones · Mar 4, 2004

Brian,

I apologize about my impersonal screen name. My name is Robert.

Yes “Melinda” and “Karina” are real people. I understand that. It makes me sad, very sad. Yes Brian, I care -- and about the hundreds of others like them. Yes, somewhere along the line the Traditional Family broke down. Was it their parents? Was it their parent's parents? Somewhere, somehow, somebody has to be held responsible for letting them get in their situation. Too many people are bringing too many people in the world and not being held responsible to feed and clothe them.

I feel that Traditional Marriages are under attack in our country. If a 20 something woman chooses to stay at home to raise her children, she is criticized and ridiculed by other women who choose to have careers. Worse yet, how many men are able to bring in enough money, to provide shelter food and other necessities to support a wife and children? It requires two incomes to survive. Young families go thru serious financial hardships. People assume that Traditional Marriages will always be there. But as you already stated, the divorce rate is way too high. Many claim differences in financial matters as their primary reason for filing for divorce.

Something needs to be done about our country's out-of-control divorce rate.

There are too many children in “Melinda” and “Karina”'s situation. Yes, this country needs some temporary means to provide for them. Yes, adoption laws need to be reexamined.

There are great minds in this country. I would like them to focus their efforts on changing laws (including tax laws) that would...
lower this country's divorce rate
lower this country's rising prison population rate
.. parents in prison can't provide for their children
.. perhaps victim restitution instead of prison sentences for non-violent crimes
lower this country's rising cohabitation rate
lower this country's rising children born out of wedlock rate

All of these trends are producing more children in “Melinda” and “Karina”'s situation. What is even more sad -- unlike Brian -- the majority of the people reading this post don't believe that they have the tools/ability to help them.

A donation to a local children's home would be a nice start. Has anyone considered joining Big Brothers/Big Sisters?

indy_85stariones · Mar 4, 2004

But, if you were given a choice -- wouldn't you prefer to be raised in a two-parent family?

I respect you. Isn't that the way families are supposed to work?

Kirby · Mar 4, 2004

indy_85stariones said:

I agree that these are positive goals. We need leadership that can focus on one of those and get somewhere with it. But the liberal squeaky wheels usually succeed in squashing those efforts. When did it start falling apart, and what caused it? If you look at divorce rates, etc. the biggest growth came in the late 70s, 80s and 90s. Prior to that it was shameful to fall in any of the above categories. Now it's no big deal and some people are PROUD of it [???1]

What caused it? IMHO, it was the '60s/'70s revolution and "free love" followed by the 80s teaching children that "your self-esteem, indepence and self-worth is what's most important, everything else is secondary". So it taught a bunch of people not to care about anything besides their own needs and comfort.

My family attends church on a regular basis, and we contribute to the causes that the church supports - help the needy, poorer churches, food banks, our church financially established a sister church in Namibya (Africa). I know I could/should do more, that's been crossing my mind more and more these days. But I'm busy trying to spend lots of time with MY kids so they don't become THOSE kids.

My goal is to at some time in the future act as a school board member to try to address these issues in schools. In Pennsylvania, It's a thankless job - no pay, lots of evening meeting hours, but it does make a difference.

Ramble mode off....

indy_85stariones · Mar 4, 2004

Yes, if more traditional families do not take on this responsibility, then who will?

I have in my hand a book called "Go for the Magic" written by Pat Williams, the former General Manager of the Orlando Magic.

Chapter 3, Investing in tomorrow, today.
"My wife and I are the parents of (are you ready for this?) eighteen children. No, that's not a typo. I said eighteen... that's 18 in arabic numerals, XVIII in roman numerals, the square root of 324. Now, my wife, Jill, personally gave birth to only four of those eighteen kids. The other fourteen have been adopted..."

The book is filled with entertaining stories about raising adopted children. In one story, Jill is at her wit's end when Pat returns home from work. At one point Pat says to her...

"The most important thing in our lives is investing our time, energy, resources, and talent in the lives of these children. We are investing today, and all of that effort will pay dividends in their lives tomorrow... Investing in tomorrow, today."

Bryan330i · Mar 4, 2004

Hi Robert:

I agree more than anyone can possibly imagine that the ideal is a household with a mother and father.

Sometimes I let this topic get the best of me and I get too worked up but there are such horrific things happening to these kids. I cannot even imagine why a state like Florida could even remotely consider not letting a child remain with a PROVEN gay couple with a PROVEN track record over a significant period of time that has resulted in great success and PROVEN benefits for the children. This from a state with one of the worst care and safety records in the nation.

Unfortunately far too many foster parents take kids only for the money and the kids suffer. Why not let the the kids have some stability?

My wife and I helped with a child that was seriously drug and alcohol affected. This 5-year-old boy has almost no hope for a life that should be filled with happiness and stability. It is only and extremely dedicated family that may be able to work with his severe handicaps and give him any kind of life. In my opinion, put him in a gay home any day over repeated movements between institutions.

We have 2 children that adoption proceedings will be final next month. The mother took a huge amount of drugs to induce labor. She stated that in her area she could not find abortion options or birth control. Our kids are the lucky ones, and for them there are dozens of others that will never have the experiences in life to which they should be entitled.

People we have worked with have said on a number of occasions that my wife and I are “highly-unusual finds that are seldom options in this system for these kids.” How sad is that?

Ghost · Mar 4, 2004

Not if it was with my biological father, he had a lot of negative issues that I am glad to say I don’t have. Although if it weren’t for my uncles, I would have been very different.

Thank you Robert, and I you. Yes, I think morals and values play a very important role in molding children. The problems that face many families today stem from parents not being parents and children needing to look elsewhere for love, support, and acceptance.

I agree with Dan,

Well put Robert...

Michael.

MyHarley · Mar 4, 2004

There are actually many topics on this thread.........since divorce is stated as a big reason for the demise of families, let me pose these thoughts.........in the 50's a divorced woman was considered to be an outsider and a shame to the family.......yes, nowaways, most women will be divorced by the age of 50 at least once.........when did all this change, with the 60's and 70's revolution..........who do you feel is responsible for this ongoing problem.........did men change, did women change, why did society accept this behavior.............my view is that men and women after the 60's lost their positions in the chain of life....men and women forgot who they were suppose to be...........I feel that men do not control the relationship as their forefathers did and I find this to be a needed asset of a man.........believe me, I'm a big proponent of equal rights.........equal job, equal pay..........but in the family I feel that the man has to be head of the household and must take responsibility for that position and gain wisdom and knowledge in how to be head of the household......that is what I feel is lacking today in most relationships and therefore our biggest asset, children, have taken the toll for this lack of responsibility......please do not take this as man bashing......but do you feel that your male co-workers, friends, or family members are actively being head of the household or are they too busy caught up in climbing the corporate ladder, playing with all their hobbies and with the hustle bustle of life, forgetting to put church and family above all else. As for the woman, she has to work twice as hard to get ahead, therefore time from the family is also lost, her income most of the time is a reality to sustain the family in the manner they wish to live, hasnt the woman lost some perspective in depriving the children and her husband of a true home by needing to achieve career goals as well.......how can we as a society get men and women back to the positions in which they were created.............loving devoted husband and father...........loving devoted wife and mother.........

My last note...........do you realize that in this country we have no consequences for immoral or unethical actions regarding our children or spouses......there are laws if you murder, rape or steal, but there are no consequences to suffer for the actions of people that leave these children unwanted, cause a divorce, etc............most states now have a no-fault divorce.........what kind of message is that..........where are the consequences???

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