VMAs...

[Bryan330i]

Thank you Big Daddy.

I think BMWlover is confusing conservatism with responsibility. Responsibility for self worth, self respect, and value for one’s self and our society. I do not view a morally limitless society as liberal, nor do I think any liberal would align with this view. So I think more in terms of responsible and irresponsible and not liberal and conservative. Responsible people are concerned with what is going on because they have the intelligence to see the direct correlation between the decay and the resulting problems.

I would encourage anyone that doubts this to read about child development, and a book on sociological changes of our society, and look at statistical analysis of behavior and resulting consequences (pregnancy, drug use etc.) and prove, statistically, there is not a direct correlation.

 

[Wadula]

King of debate? thanks bear but without my people there would be no kingdom


bryan, in my eyes the list you name is aweful, i admit that, but it is even more aweful to conect that list to happenings like they are shown on MTV. a kiss between two girls will not end up in a raping theft who kills the gardener. it is right to protect kids from seeing pornographical material and violence, but that was not pornographical. it was a kiss.
and furthermore it is up to the parents to explain the ongoing to their kids. an open talk and open mind on the parents side is what a kid needs, not censored amish TV. sorry to say amish TV, but i gain the impression that especially in terms of media and culture the US has two faces. two girls kissing is to be forbidden where as the same night the family goes and watches T3 with their kids. (when i saw T3, SWAT and Bad Boys 2, each time we had kids of under 10 in the theatre. why??? no one complains about that.


furthermore i just can´t understand many of those rules. no top less on the beach? why? it is so normal in europe and our kids don´t rape each other! here, it is a major crime and police gets you for it....
no sexual content in films and no erotic literature in public places. hell we have the playboy next to the car magazines and after 11 p.m. the adult movies are shown. did i mention that we do not see rised raping figures because of that? but here, in fact, the world has the biggest porno scene, production and consumption...

this topic is matter that can be handled way easier without risking loss of moral. in fact that will really bring up moral. see the playboy there, but don´t read it. that is moral. see the girl top less on the beach and don´t rape her. no that´s not moral, that´s normal.


there are very few points where i completly disagree with the american spirits, but this is one. i am sorry if i might step on ones toes here

 

[Bryan330i]

Wadula...I total understand where you are comming from. I guess my question is how much of what we have accepted, whatever it is, contributed to the problems in society. I guess this incident got a little off track and became a bigger issue to many and has proved to be an opportunity to debate some of these issues.

My first real job was working for the psychology department at a major university when I was 20. I did the busy work of reading information and compiling responses relayed by children in structured questioning. It is disturbing to see the trends.

You have a very valid point about the kiss. My viewpoint is how and where do we draw the line not only because of a kiss, but how it may continue to broaden what is deemed acceptable for public broadcast.

 

[tripulldee]

Thanks Bryan330i, you make very valid points.

As for BMWlover, no I do not think I am being a little too conservative, I too have my rights and beliefs. As far as your gay question, I do not approve of public displays of affection from either gays or hetrosezuals in public. That too should be something between two people in the privacey of their own home. And by the way there is not one stydy that confirms homosexaulty is genetic. It is not normal for sex to occur between two persons of the same sex, even animals know that!

And Tripulldee, I agree it is not up to them to be role models, but how many Brittney Spears dolls were sold to little girls believeing in the wholesome image Brittney use to portray? Are you tellling me that stars, sports, film, etc. are not seen by kids and impressonable persons as role models? I agree it should come from home, but when I pay for TV service in my home and this type of filth is flashed across my big screen with my 3 year old grandson watching with no warning what are my options?

When we continue to lower our standards and dumb down our children we are a nation in trouble. Look closely at history. Anyway, I am a grandfather and want to leave something of value to my grandson, the rest of you youngins can live in filth if you so desire, someday though you will have kids and think, Hmmm!

Big Daddy, it can be argued that it has been a few years since Britney Spears has portrayed a wholesome image....just refer back to her performances at the VMA's the last few years, her alleged breast implants, premarital sex, etc.....with chris rock as a host and looking back at VMA's from years past, the language and content is definitely not suitable for children, that's what the parental guidelines flashed in the beginning of the show are for....you most likely had some kind of idea there would be inappropriate content aired during the course of the show (i'll give it to you that no one expected the kiss)....however, i do think celebrities should be held accountable for their actions and should be setting a better example but at the same time they are just human, just like we are, main difference is that they make boatloads more money and are more visible....i am not defending them or condoning their actions, all i am saying is that i strongly believe if you teach and instill the correct values in children, they will turn out just fine....i'm sure your grandson will turn out just fine, it's too bad there aren't more parents and grandparents out there that cared as much as you do

 

[Bear6360]

King of debate? thanks bear but without my people there would be no kingdom


bryan, in my eyes the list you name is aweful, i admit that, but it is even more aweful to conect that list to happenings like they are shown on MTV. a kiss between two girls will not end up in a raping theft who kills the gardener. it is right to protect kids from seeing pornographical material and violence, but that was not pornographical. it was a kiss.
and furthermore it is up to the parents to explain the ongoing to their kids. an open talk and open mind on the parents side is what a kid needs, not censored amish TV. sorry to say amish TV, but i gain the impression that especially in terms of media and culture the US has two faces. two girls kissing is to be forbidden where as the same night the family goes and watches T3 with their kids. (when i saw T3, SWAT and Bad Boys 2, each time we had kids of under 10 in the theatre. why??? no one complains about that.


furthermore i just can´t understand many of those rules. no top less on the beach? why? it is so normal in europe and our kids don´t rape each other! here, it is a major crime and police gets you for it....
no sexual content in films and no erotic literature in public places. hell we have the playboy next to the car magazines and after 11 p.m. the adult movies are shown. did i mention that we do not see rised raping figures because of that? but here, in fact, the world has the biggest porno scene, production and consumption...

this topic is matter that can be handled way easier without risking loss of moral. in fact that will really bring up moral. see the playboy there, but don´t read it. that is moral. see the girl top less on the beach and don´t rape her. no that´s not moral, that´s normal.


there are very few points where i completly disagree with the american spirits, but this is one. i am sorry if i might step on ones toes here

Let the games begin!! How 'bout it, Wadula? Shall we kill yet another thread?!

The people who agree with taking their kids to see T3 and other rated R movies are the same people arguing your point of view....not BigDaddy, Bryan, or I. I went to see the 2nd Austin Powers movie and was shocked how many younger children were there. They didn't even get half of the jokes. It was pretty lame. Their parents were too lazy to find a baby-sitter...either that, or the parents were so selfish, they would rather subject their children to that than miss the movie.

Europeans are more disciplined socially to a degree than Americans. They are a little more refined. It's easy for you to mention nude beaches and the sort since it has been that way for 100's of years in Europe. Not here. People don't have any self control in America. Most of them are selfish. They would rather expose their children to certain things just so they too can see it instead of worrying about the wellfare of their children and how things like that might affect them.

You certainly have some merit in your argument, though. It's like drinking. Once most Americans are 21, they don't like drinking so much. It loses its luster because it is then legal. The same could be said for drugs. If America would legalize pot, the usage would probably (don't hold me to this) drop. Either way, the price certainly would drop....then we'd all be happy! [joke]

Arguing the cultural differences between Europeans and Americans, though, won't solve much. They are two different cultures. You can't expect one to try to be more like the other. If everyone were the same, the world would be quite boring.

In closing, I don't completely disagree with you. I feel that there is a downward spiral that American society is heading down, though. Everything in our society is about sex (and money). People's vanity know no sotiety.

 

[Bear6360]

Big Daddy, it can be argued that it has been a few years since Britney Spears has portrayed a wholesome image....just refer back to her performances at the VMA's the last few years, her alleged breast implants, premarital sex, etc.....with chris rock as a host and looking back at VMA's from years past, the language and content is definitely not suitable for children, that's what the parental guidelines flashed in the beginning of the show are for....you most likely had some kind of idea there would be inappropriate content aired during the course of the show (i'll give it to you that no one expected the kiss)....however, i do think celebrities should be held accountable for their actions and should be setting a better example but at the same time they are just human, just like we are, main difference is that they make boatloads more money and are more visible....i am not defending them or condoning their actions, all i am saying is that i strongly believe if you teach and instill the correct values in children, they will turn out just fine....i'm sure your grandson will turn out just fine, it's too bad there aren't more parents and grandparents out there that cared as much as you do

Your whole rating argument has lots of merit.
I prefer when breaking the barrier meant allowing women to vote, or the abolishment of segregation....not kissing someone of the same sex on television. At least the old school barrier breakers had some sort of positive affect on society. The kiss was a cheap stab for attention. Girls (not all of them) love attention. They got what they wanted....and we're still giving it to them.

The point about instilling values in your children is true to a degree. You CAN instill values in children....but "if everyone else is doing it, why can't I? Dad's just an old fuddy-duddy." What's to stop them from thinking that even though drinking and driving is illegal, everyone else does it and is fine, so I'll do it too. Children, along with everyone else, learn from example. Seeing someone else doing something is a lot more apparent than seeing people abstain from certain activities. No matter how many celebrities don't kiss on TV, you always remember the ones who did.

 

[ooo000HITMAN000ooo]

I didnt even read any of the post there to long

shes lost her hot school girl look

maybe she is gay because justin was a girl

 

[Wadula]

thanks for the opening speech friend

here we go:

Europeans are more disciplined socially to a degree than Americans. They are a little more refined. It's easy for you to mention nude beaches and the sort since it has been that way for 100's of years in Europe

Not true. Europe started to discover beachlife in the early 19 hundreds. the culture at that time was stiffer than steel. both sides, women and men were not allowed to show any more skin than realy absolutely necessary and even that was already too much. it took to the late 1920´s for the women to get wearing bathing suits. before they were wearing long bathing trousers and long armed bathing tops, or sometimes even real ropes. men were not allowed to shoe breast. you see, it is not even 90 years now that europe is so open.

People don't have any self control in America. Most of them are selfish. They would rather expose their children to certain things just so they too can see it instead of worrying about the wellfare of their children and how things like that might affect them.

Interesting, especially considering the aspect that security and moral are probably the two highest standards and pillars this country bets on. that exactly is what i think gives this nation the urgent need to step on further, evolve. on the one hand living in corpus christy you can get sued for child abuse or sexual whatever, if you just look at a 17 years old in the park for a second too long, but no one cares when youhave you 12 years old look to freddy vs. jason. i don´t mean it cocky and i don´t want to sound like a parent rising and pointing his finger.it is just that i know from bear that he is interested how others see his folks. that´s why i share.

Arguing the cultural differences between Europeans and Americans, though, won't solve much. They are two different cultures. You can't expect one to try to be more like the other. If everyone were the same, the world would be quite boring.

True for the boring part if everyone was the same. not true that discussing differences don´t solve. it is exactly the differences that are discussed and the views and models and examples of others that can show one how to change. without a model there is no ideas. without ideas there is no movement.
please, don´t let americans become germans, that i could not stand, and please not the other way either. that would carry the risk we stop building those great german cars

You certainly have some merit in your argument, though. It's like drinking. Once most Americans are 21, they don't like drinking so much. It loses its luster because it is then legal. The same could be said for drugs. If America would legalize pot, the usage would probably (don't hold me to this) drop. Either way, the price certainly would drop....then we'd all be happy!

A complete different field, but worth some words. i agree almost. for the drugs,yes. legalizing would make it less interesting. look at holland. they have legal pot and they really do not starve to mindless drugsters who loose their social capabilties. in fact, the netherlands are one of the few european nations that have economic growth.and no, it is not the turnover of drugs that keep the GDP growing
not true for the alcohol. i am 25 and i just switched from beer to cuba libre and discovered that it is very good. i like it better than beer. but only because the last 180 days were too much ruled by beer. that did fed me up.



alright, i see we have more in common than really usefull for a debate, so maybe we should consider this one an easy one?

 

[ooo000HITMAN000ooo]

OMG could these post get any longer

 

[Wadula]

sure they can. you want us to?

 

[ooo000HITMAN000ooo]

sure they can. you want us to?

sure why not im not reading them anyways

 

[Wadula]

then why commenting them?

 

[ooo000HITMAN000ooo]

then why commenting them?

I was reading them but then it got boring...

COMMENTING????? not about what ever the heck you guys are talking about

only that she lost here school girl look

 

[Wadula]

i like that she lost that look. it doesn´t make you feel that bad any more when staring at her...

actually what bear and i discuss should make us both foreign ministers...i might run for president in the future. nicaragua maybe.... in the US too many people knowme by now

 

[Bear6360]

Hitman's right. This things is way long. I'll try to keep 'er a little shorter.

You can just scroll up to see what I'm responding too instead of copying all that down here again.

I was unaware of how quickly nude beaches evolved in Europe. I should have thought out my statement better. I can just imagine trying to get the people in old school germany to accept nude beaches. Maybe they're not such a bad thing afterall.

I understand your point about 17 year old girls and gory movies. I guess the sexual content on TV is worse in my eyes merely because of the fact that it's so taboo whereas seeing violence on TV is a walk in the park. The violence is what's ruining society moreso than the sexual content. The sexual content and innuendo on television is what makes today's sitcoms seem so stupid to me. They're not very intellectual at all.

please, don´t let americans become germans, that i could not stand, and please not the other way either. that would carry the risk we stop building those great german cars

I agree with you on that one. Americans invented cars....germans made them better. Without sharing some different ideas from different cultures, germany (and the rest of the world) could possibly still using...uh...whatever they used before cars.

I guess overall that becoming more acceptable as a nation would be good...but there are a lot of selfish people in the good ol' USA who might make things like that ugly (i.e. nude beaches). Also, there are a lot of conservative people in this nation. At least now we see a little more eye to eye on the subject, though.

 

[Bear6360]

I was reading them but then it got boring...

I know how you feel man. When I'm sleepy and I sign on here, I dread long posts.

 

[Wadula]

I agree with you on that one. Americans invented cars....germans made them better. Without sharing some different ideas from different cultures, germany (and the rest of the world) could possibly still using...uh...whatever they used before cars.

sorry, but it was germans who invented the automobile. 1885, Mr. Benz invented the automobil with a gazoline powered engine.



Waht do you mean with nude beaches? i ask, because we have normal beaches (top less) and nude beaches (complete nude). the nude thing is not found so often and in public as the top less thing.

 

[Spidey]

MTV is NOT for children... It's for young adults! If you notice the performers, presenters, and winners of the VMA's were all adults! I'll say it again... This show is for young adults! MTV has always been a pioneer in sexuality, experimentation, and SELF EXPRESSION... also known to some as FREEDOM!

Madana, Britney, and Christina have always been about one thing... SEX APPEAL!!!

They have ALWAYS been this way...and always will! Any parent that isn't aware of this is BLIND! Anyone remember the VMA's 10 years ago when Madana came out in the spiked bra?!?!

With that said, it should be no surprise that they had an innocent kiss on stage to boost the performance. Shit, it was ridiculously innocent!

If you think this type of television is too much for your children, your probably right. It wasn't meant for them! Turn on the "KIDS CHOICE AWARDS" if you don't want to see the adult stars doing what they have always done.

Personally I thought the show was great.

 

[brahtw8]

Thought I would get back into the mix since my brief stint away from the 'puter . . .

I missed the VMAs, but have viewed the above pictures and video. The pictures do make it seem like more of a kiss than when viewed in real time.

I was not offended in the least and I didn't see the act as particularly lesbian, but more akin to the kind of european greeting mentioned above. Was it done for shock/commercial value? I would assume so, but there may have been a desire to make a political statement as well.

Being a libertarian, I don't see the problem with the action.

I understand where people are coming from with regard to their own morality and the values they desire to instill in their children.

I strongly oppose the imposition of morality on a national scale. The fact that one's sensibilities may be offended by public displays of homosexual affection has no relevance whatsoever to whether such action should be permitted.

I think we beat the homosexual thing to death in the Howard Dean thread, but I understand it is a hot issue right now (thanks GWB and the supreme court).

 

[Wadula]

Wadula...I total understand where you are comming from. I guess my question is how much of what we have accepted, whatever it is, contributed to the problems in society. I guess this incident got a little off track and became a bigger issue to many and has proved to be an opportunity to debate some of these issues.

My first real job was working for the psychology department at a major university when I was 20. I did the busy work of reading information and compiling responses relayed by children in structured questioning. It is disturbing to see the trends.

You have a very valid point about the kiss. My viewpoint is how and where do we draw the line not only because of a kiss, but how it may continue to broaden what is deemed acceptable for public broadcast.

Bryan, i am sorry, i just found your reply now, i overread it somehow. i'm sorry.

Although late, i want to respond anyway.

I agree that this kiss normally would not be worth discussing this much but that is the dark side of being a star and media object. everything they do, everything they say and every step they take weighs hell of a lot more compared to us. A star is always subject of examination and evaluation by the public. If someone hits his dog cause he didn't sit on the down comand, it is someone and the dog just didn't listen. if this someone suddenly turns out to be mel gibbson or arnold schwarzenegger hell's unleashed.

i agree that it is those famous personalities have a very big role model function. I do not think that we should try to control and reason those personalities too much. parents should furthermore pay attention to what stars their kids admire and not how those stars can be influenced or should behave instead of the way they do. Sure enough a child searches and chooses the example it can follow itself, but parents can influence that, can't they?

Lower in the posts, a valid point was made. there are suitable sorts of channels and contents on TV for each and every group. Watching MTV with persons that are not suitabel, or better said with people that MTV is not suitable for, is a weak basic to complain from.