What do you believe in¿

[junglestylz]

You have absolutely no reason to feel sorry for the troops that are over there. They knew what they were doing when they signed that paper and put up there hand. The vast majority of them also firn=mly believe in what they are doing. I have the right to say this because I am one of those troops, and I have about three hundred friends over there that I talk to on a frequent basis. This is another voice of the hippocracy that takes place in this country. You would be the one saying "we have no right to be over there", but if we let all the citizens of that country be mindlessly slaughtered, you would also be the one saying "why don't we help them, we have the power". As for the homeless issue, I gave $20 bucks to a guy and saw him three days later at a blackjack table in Sams Town wearing an outfit that is probably worth more than my car. People don't want to help the homeless in this country because they don't want top be reminded, that they are in fact, in this country. It is the basic american mindset called "not in my backyard".

 

[PuShAkOv]

I agree on most points but I disagree that most troops want to be there. Most sign-up for army or reserves just to get a free college aducation or a monthly check from the government. I bet now if you ask them personally if they support everything they are fighting over in Iraq... most probably would say no. The thing is they do not have a choice of being in Iraq after they signed a portion of their lives to the government. And with a minimum of one soldier death per day, their optimism is dropping. If not for the oil giants ruling this country,.. this war would never have taken place. An un-biased look at all their "evidence" that justified the war would left this country out of it. It is only after the fact that we are beginning to understand the mistak our country has commited.

 

[junglestylz]

And by saying that most of the soldiers don't believe in what they are doing, you are wrong. They may not want to be there, but that is entirely different than not believing in it. Who in there right damn mind would want to go to that country¿ If they signed that contract just for college money, then they should have realized that there are easier ways to go about it. You have financial aid, student loans, grants, scholarships, they simply made the wrong choice. Believe it or not they will let you out of the Armed services. They won't however after you have gotten word that you are being deployed. If some of them signed the reserve or national guard contract for the paycheck, then the are quite possibly retarded, I will send you a copy of my ultra fat $100 a month paycheck that the government so gratefully gives me. If you can't find a better way to make a hunderd bucks, than you are probably not smart enough to remember how to eat. As for the one soldier death a day issue. Do you have any idea how many soldiers a day die from training accidents in the US¿ Far more than one a day. Even if you stopped recruiting and letting new people in, it would take roughly 648.93 years to deplete just the reservists and guardsmen in the middle east by killing one a day. Let me ask you something. How many people do you know that are over there right now¿ Actually, how many people do you know that are in the military¿

 

[Big Daddy]

Where do you get this stuff, "most sign-up for army or reserves just to get a free college education or a monthly check from the government"? You have zero experience with the military and what makes them tick. Like I have said before, my father spent 27 years in the service and one of my brothers spent 8 years in the military. "Most" could make more money elsewhere, and compared to enlistment figures "most" never use their "GI" bill. Many enlist after college, entering as a Officer. I have a good freind who is a surgeon in the military and could make ten times more money in a private hospital. He stays in the military because he likes the military life, enjoys serving his country and deeply cares about providing quality medical services to those serving with him. He also volunteers at a local hospital when he can.

The only accurate thing you said was that, "the thing is they do not have a choice..." True, just like police officers who sign up have no choice to run away when the shooting starts, or the fire fighter who has no choice but to enter the burning building. They accepted that choice when they signed up, and for it they get the satisfaction that they have served their fellow man.

As far as the oil comment, I guess there is no point in discussing it. Some people cannot see past oil (which we have not touched by the way) and see the lives saved, the torture gone, the dictator displaced, the suffering ended.

 

[junglestylz]

bravo

 

[QuickCivicGuy]

Where do you get this stuff, "most sign-up for army or reserves just to get a free college education or a monthly check from the government"? You have zero experience with the military and what makes them tick. Like I have said before, my father spent 27 years in the service and one of my brothers spent 8 years in the military. "Most" could make more money elsewhere, and compared to enlistment figures "most" never use their "GI" bill. Many enlist after college, entering as a Officer. I have a good freind who is a surgeon in the military and could make ten times more money in a private hospital. He stays in the military because he likes the military life, enjoys serving his country and deeply cares about providing quality medical services to those serving with him. He also volunteers at a local hospital when he can.

The only accurate thing you said was that, "the thing is they do not have a choice..." True, just like police officers who sign up have no choice to run away when the shooting starts, or the fire fighter who has no choice but to enter the burning building. They accepted that choice when they signed up, and for it they get the satisfaction that they have served their fellow man.

As far as the oil comment, I guess there is no point in discussing it. Some people cannot see past oil (which we have not touched by the way) and see the lives saved, the torture gone, the dictator displaced, the suffering ended.

Nail on the head....

Even if it was for oil......do you use gas push? Change your oil? Do you drive your car? Would you like to continue driving your car?

These luxuries are afforded by the fact that we as americans can afford to buy oil....when that supply goes down and the gas prices go up...guess who the first people to complain are? The same people that complain about us going to war for "oil" Ironic isnt it....the same people who complain about oil wars are the same people who complain about paying too much

Military service is not easy...we know this first hand....but its the reason we serve in the first place..............who is going to get that oil for you push? You...your friends...your co-workers? I am sure they are all fully trained M-16 experts and work 18hour days in 113 degree heat and stay away from your family for a year or two?

 

[junglestylz]

I know for a fact that if these people really didn't want to be in the military than they would have washed out already. I also know that if their CO, XO, 1sgt, or CSM found out that they didn't want to be there, they would have kicked them the hell out. The military is not a jail, iuf you don't want to be there, do you think everybody else would want you on a battlefield with them¿ The correct answer is HELL NO! I suggest to most people that if they have never been in the military, then they say absolutely nothing about how it works, or the people in it. People view it as selling yourself to the government, but guess what, it's a job, and that is all it is. It just so happens to be a job that gives you more pride than any other job, but it is a job just the same. The only problem with being in the military right now is the fact that I am in it to protect some people that have no clue, and no appreciation. They say we are evil war mongers, but soldiers and their families are the only people that going to war really truly affects. You think that the military wants to go to war, but in truth, we are the ones that really despise war. We are putting our lives on the line to protect people that do nothing but dog on what we are doing. It is just like Vietnam. These soldiers have to come back and hear ignorant little troglodytes saying what a shame it is that we are over there right now. When they in fact have no idea what is really going on. I say this, if you don't believe in what we are doing, then shut your f@cking mouth, especially around soldiers. Even if you don't believe in it, those soldiers still deserve your full and utmost respect. It was not the college protestor that gave and secured your freedom of speech, it was a soldier. It was not a priest that gave and secured your freedom of religion, it was a soldier. Soldiers are the ones that gave your all your rights, and protected them for you. Here we are doing the same thing for people of a different country, and we don't belong there¿ That train of thought is the most selfish, egotistical, f*cked up thing I have ever heard.

 

[PuShAkOv]

Who in there right damn mind would want to go to that country¿

Bush, only bush. They were in the army before they ever knew that they will be fighting Iraq. Many of them thought they were doing the right thing from endless propoganda supplied by the defense department and the Bush Administration. Majority of American's say that they regret of going to war with Iraq (poll results)... and this is coming from people who never saw people get killed and blown up.... I am sure soldiers (who saw friends get killed or hurt) would not be much different.

 

[junglestylz]

What is with you and propaganda¿ I joined the Army because it looked cool in the commercials1D NO! I joined the Army because I love my country mmore than anything. Including my family. I find it very pitiful that you don't have the same feelings. It is after all the country that protects my family. I'm sure that you would rather have some pantywaste freak like Clinton in office. Where he would have said "oh, I know it wasn't your government that did such a thing. We can't go in after BinLaden". F*ck that. We had a right to go into Afghanistan after the 9/11 events. But we go into Iraq to hopefully stop things like this from happeneing again, and every bunny humping liberal in the countrry goes and gets their panties in a twist. Shall we just wait until thousands of civilians die again before we go to war again. It's economic, and protective prevention that makes people like you safe. Where Clinton would wait until it happened again. We finally, after 8 years, had a president come in that wouldn't take any sh!t, and now everyone with a hackysack, and a don't eat meat bumpers sticker is forgetting what got us into this in the first place. Over 2,000 men, women, and children senslessly murdered in our own country. That is what started this. Not oil. If you can't realize that, then maybe you should take another long hard look at the situation.

 

[Big Daddy]

Bush, only bush. They were in the army before they ever knew that they will be fighting Iraq. Many of them thought they were doing the right thing from endless propoganda supplied by the defense department and the Bush Administration. Majority of American's say that they regret of going to war with Iraq (poll results)... and this is coming from people who never saw people get killed and blown up.... I am sure soldiers (who saw friends get killed or hurt) would not be much different.

No "not Bush only Bush". I wanted the US to take care of things in Iraq and still do. I want my freedom secure, I want terrorist and terrorist countries eliminated.

"They were in the army before they ever knew that they will be fighting in Iraq", so what does that have to do with anything? My father was in the service before he knew about the Korean War, WWII and Vietnam, so? That is like saying he became a fire fighter before that building caught fire, so now he does not have to fight that one.

Polls, I do not live my life based on polls. I am in my late 40's and have never been called or polled. Where do they get these people they poll? Out of their biased newspaper or TV news channel offices? From their friends? Sorry but the majority in this nation are usually silent. Try getting some information from fact, like a career military person, asking people randomly yourself, or from life.

I have seen people killed, I was there when several have been killed. I have carried a child out of a home where the family was murdered and the suspects location, in or out of the house was unknown. I am very sorrowful and humbled by the deaths of our soliders in any conflict, however I respect and honor them for their dedication and service. I do not wear my love for my country on my sleeve like something I just obtained as a result of the Iraq war. I have always felt respect for my country and it's core values as a result of my parents teachings and respect for my fathers service.

 

[PuShAkOv]

They have not yet found any weapons of mass destruction, so right now they are not protecting us from anything, and many countries now have nuclear weapons or whatever, Are we going to attack the world? America has spent billions of dollarrs on the war that could have been better spent in the economy in my opinion.

I don't want to get into this, I just wanted to point that out so please don't attack me, thats why I added the "in my opinioon" at the end.

 

[Big Daddy]

I did not base my desire to invade Iraq soley on WMD, and I am not convinced they have not found them, nor am I convinced that they did not exist. And if North Korea and Iran do not comply with the International Laws regarding nuclear weapons, posing a threat to the US than yes we should attack them. If terrorist continue to blow up buildings and airplanes the money spent on the war would have little effect on the economy. And this is my opinion.

 

[junglestylz]

I could hide the most deadly weapon of mass destruction in my pocket. You are talking about a country that is bigger than Texas. How many places do you honestly think that they could hide them. They have found delivery systems for Chemical and Biological weapons. Why would they have those if they didn't either have the weapons, or desire to create the weapons. Everybody should be glad that they haven't found them yet. As soon as you find them, most likely somebody else has them and is going to use them. The fact of the matter is, that they had the ability to, and would make them. The supply and fund terrorists, and the mere chance that terrorists could get a hold of them is enough reason to step into the situation.

 

[PuShAkOv]

If they haven't found them though, and they are there, aren't they still a danger to America? Wouldn't the war still be useless?

 

[Wadula]

in that case the war finally would make sense, although a very sad one as the result is not positive.

anyway, i am so tired of discussing that topic. can't we just stop it? it makes so little sense that it is always the same people with the same positions and the same arguments that get involved without ever finding a consent? why the heck do we always have to beat that damn dead horse? we can't change it anyway!

 

[junglestylz]

All W'sMD are a threat to America. It is keeping them away from our country that is the issue. I have no doubt in my mind that there are Terrorist regimes that have access to W'sMD, but the worthwhile effort of keeping them away from our people.

 

[brahtw8]

A few thoughts on the ORIGINAL topic.

Most people are opposed to racial quotas, where an employer chooses to hire a specific number of minorities. Quotas were struck down long ago. Today, Affirmative Action means that race is a part of a decision based on a multitude of factors. It may mean that a preference is given to a minority over an otherwise similarly qualified individual.

Equal Opportunity is the way it should be, but don't fool yourself into thinking that we live in a world or a country where Equal Opportunity does not result in gross inequity.

Poverty is the deciding factor today, not race. If you go to a school that spends $2000 a year per pupil, you will have a much more difficult time succeeding in life than if you go to a school that spends $10000 a year or more. These disparities impact minorities more greatly, because they have a greater number of individuals living in poverty.

So, if you really believe in equal opportunity, as I do, you should take a hard look into making sure that everyone really does have an equal opportunity.

In regard to the comments made by Big Daddy and others, that most of the homeless choose to be homeless, that is not correct and has never been demonstrated to my knowledge. It smacks of the Reagan-era welfare queen ideology, which was not an accurate portrayal of welfare in this country. Yes, there are some who are lazy, but they are a small part of the picture.

A very significant percentage of the homeless are mentally ill individuals who are not under a doctor's care. Some may choose not to take their medication, but most cannot afford medication (back to health care again). Another significant percentage (with much overlap) are veterans. The support our troops chant disappears far too quickly for those who are left with the mental and physical scars. Go to your local veteran's center if you want to know the reality of war and its aftermath.

A few thoughts on the WAR topic:

I see no point in continuing the oil versus national security debate. We are already in Iraq.

What I want to know is how do we get out, and how do we avoid spending the next twenty to thirty years hopping from country to country in the Middle East, which is exactly what this Administration and the Cheney Doctrine intend to do. You may think that is reactionary, but most conservative and liberal political analysts agree that it is the logical extension of our current foreign policy, and the Administration would tell you that if they ever held a press conference that wasn't scripted and decided to answer a reporter's question in a direct manner.

If that is what you want, fine, but be honest about what it is going to cost us, in lives and dollars.

I understand that they think it is necessary, but I don't think most people in this country want it to happen, and I think it is only going to decrease our national security. I would rather see our efforts applied to Saudi Arabia (not advocating a regime change, mind you), Afghanistan and Northern Pakistan, where the Taliban remain today plotting their next attack. Our current efforts only feed the anti-American ideology that exists in the Muslim world.

There are many parallels that can be drawn to Vietnam. Terrorism is the new Communism for the Hawks out there. Bin Laden and Hussein are villified (albeit correctly in this instance) in the same manner that Ho Chi Minh was (incorrectly).

A little history lesson for those who want to call me Hanoi Jane for the above: We let the French keep Vietnam as a colony in order to gain their support for the United Nations and the fight against Communism, following WWII. Ho Chi Minh actually worked for the SSI, which is now the CIA, and helped the US fight the Japanese during WWII, who were occupying Vietnam and other parts of Asia. Vietnam has only ever wanted its independence, and has fought the French, Japanese, Chinese, and Americans to get it. We refused to aid them against our ally, France, so they turned to Russia. After France was defeated at Dien Bien Phu, we took over, primarly based on a world-view that saw Vietnam as the key to avoiding a communist takeover in Asia. This is all well documented and cannot be disputed by those who care about the truth.

Now that we are in Iraq, we realize that many of their people (to say nothing of the rest of the arab world) do not want us to be there and are willing to kill us and themselves until we leave. We have now lost more soldiers in the 'peace' since we did in the made for TV war. (By which I mean it was wrong to declare victory so soon when we are far from it even today).

I think the focus on why we went in only distracts us from the real issue of how we get out. To that the Administration has no answer and we need to find one before things get any worse. With Israel bombing Syria, don't kid yourself about the volatility in the region.

Although I encourage intelligent commentary on the above, don't engage me with simplistic notions and one liners, or I will hand you your a$$ on a platter.

 

[junglestylz]

I am wondering how the hell this thread ended up on this topic anyway.

 

[PuShAkOv]

I am wondering how the hell this thread ended up on this topic anyway.

Equal oppertunity/Affermative action> Goverment > War

 

[Kirby]

Any argument that uses NOT finding Weapons Of Mass destruction is fundamentally flawed. This whole issue in the press right now makes me crazeeeeeeeeeee!

It has been proven 100% that mobile weapon labs were found.
It has been proven 100% by Iraqi Scientists that they made WMD and destroyed them.
It has been proven 100% that they used chemical weapons against their own citizens.

The HARD part is building the lab and producing the FIRST production run. The Iraqi scientists ADMIT they did this!!! We have the proof!!! The EASY part is doing it the 2nd, 3rd, Nth time AND THEY HAD THE EQUIPMENT READY TO GO!!!

If they were willing to use chemical weapons to kill THEIR OWN citizens, why do you think they would be LESS likely to use them on their enemy????

They could have been back in PRODUCTION of WMD in a few days!!!

The THREAT still existed at the same level REGARDLESS of whether we found actual stockpiles.

I feel better now....

If you are morally against war, OK. But supporting that with no WMD found is silly.