Western Culture
- Thread starter rinard
- Start date
This is not true.
The US is a nation run by man. How can you enforce Love one another? Because we are a nation of men, this type of law is simply impractical. The men who wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights knew this.
Jesus did not repeal the laws of the Old Testament, other than animal sacrifice. Remember Jesus was a Jew. He elaborated on the laws of the Old Testament. Jesus did not say that the Ten Commandments no longer applied. He taught a better, more moralistic way to live. For example: Love thy neighbor as thy self. Jesus taught that if we truely loved our neighbor as ourselves, we would not need the eye for an eye law.
Remember the authors of the Constitution were smart enough to realize the the separation of church and state is the key to free nation. They were also smart enough to know that you can't completely base a government on a religion and allow everyone to have complete freedom. If they did not base our laws on religious beliefs, then were did they get the laws from? Why the message In God We Trust on every piece of US currency?
I am not here to judge or belittle anyone. Although the Bible is open to interpretation, there are some things that are fact. I just hate to see people basing there beliefs on what other people do and not what is actually in a particular religion.
The US is a nation run by man. How can you enforce Love one another? Because we are a nation of men, this type of law is simply impractical. The men who wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights knew this.
Jesus did not repeal the laws of the Old Testament, other than animal sacrifice. Remember Jesus was a Jew. He elaborated on the laws of the Old Testament. Jesus did not say that the Ten Commandments no longer applied. He taught a better, more moralistic way to live. For example: Love thy neighbor as thy self. Jesus taught that if we truely loved our neighbor as ourselves, we would not need the eye for an eye law.
Remember the authors of the Constitution were smart enough to realize the the separation of church and state is the key to free nation. They were also smart enough to know that you can't completely base a government on a religion and allow everyone to have complete freedom. If they did not base our laws on religious beliefs, then were did they get the laws from? Why the message In God We Trust on every piece of US currency?
I am not here to judge or belittle anyone. Although the Bible is open to interpretation, there are some things that are fact. I just hate to see people basing there beliefs on what other people do and not what is actually in a particular religion.
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-- Jesus taught that if we truely loved our neighbor as ourselves, we would not need the eye for an eye law. --
According to Christianity, Salvation is only through Christ. "I am the Way, the Truth, Life. No man comes to the father except through me." John 14:6
If salvation was possible through the Law, this would not be true. Therefore the law IS repealed. John makes this point very clear to the Galations.
-- If they did not base our laws on religious beliefs, then were did they get the laws from? Why the message In God We Trust on every piece of US currency? --
Certainly, and as I stated earlier, laws are almost always based on religion, I agree. But the laws of this country are not specific to ANY religion, exactly as you stated. Show me the name of Jesus Christ (the god of Christians) in any legislation.
According to Christianity, Salvation is only through Christ. "I am the Way, the Truth, Life. No man comes to the father except through me." John 14:6
If salvation was possible through the Law, this would not be true. Therefore the law IS repealed. John makes this point very clear to the Galations.
-- If they did not base our laws on religious beliefs, then were did they get the laws from? Why the message In God We Trust on every piece of US currency? --
Certainly, and as I stated earlier, laws are almost always based on religion, I agree. But the laws of this country are not specific to ANY religion, exactly as you stated. Show me the name of Jesus Christ (the god of Christians) in any legislation.
So what you are saying is, and I have had this argument with several people, that if I believe in Jesus as my savior, have sex out of marriage, kill at a drop of a hat, commit horrible acts of violence and commit every sin, I will have eternal life? I don't think so. Anyone who believes in Jesus as his savior must also also follow his teachings, or they truly do not believe.
Matthew 5:17-20 "Do not thing that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fullfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter , not the least stroke of a pen, will by an means disappear from the Law until everthing is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
I have this passage highlighted in my Bible.
It really does take more than believing in Jesus as your savior. IMO the two coexist.
Again, Jesus did not abolish the Law (Old Testament). Read Matthew 5-7. Jesus easily sets the laws which coincide with the Old Testament. If "In God We Trust" on our currency is not the God of Christ, then which God is it? Why is it capitalized if it is not referring to the one and only God?
I really enjoy an intellectual discussion - I don't feel you are being argumentative.
Matthew 5:17-20 "Do not thing that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fullfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter , not the least stroke of a pen, will by an means disappear from the Law until everthing is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
I have this passage highlighted in my Bible.
It really does take more than believing in Jesus as your savior. IMO the two coexist.
Again, Jesus did not abolish the Law (Old Testament). Read Matthew 5-7. Jesus easily sets the laws which coincide with the Old Testament. If "In God We Trust" on our currency is not the God of Christ, then which God is it? Why is it capitalized if it is not referring to the one and only God?
I really enjoy an intellectual discussion - I don't feel you are being argumentative.
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You make a good point, I will study that passage in Matthew. This sounds like the classic Faith vs. Works debat. To paraphrase Paul, "Works without faith is dead, as is if faith without works. I will show you my faith by my works." I believe you are correct that if a person truly believes in Jesus, and therefore follows his teachings, they will by defualt keep the Law.
But my point was, the laws of our country "could" be said to be based on nearly any religion, because none of the docterine that separates Christians from many other religions is present in the laws (speaking of only the laws of the first century or so, if we consider the laws of the last century, I would say our country is based on hedonism).
I also have enjoyed this discussion, thanks for not being offended by my positions. You've made some really good points.
But my point was, the laws of our country "could" be said to be based on nearly any religion, because none of the docterine that separates Christians from many other religions is present in the laws (speaking of only the laws of the first century or so, if we consider the laws of the last century, I would say our country is based on hedonism).
I also have enjoyed this discussion, thanks for not being offended by my positions. You've made some really good points.
From what I've heard from different friends of mine who have converted to Islam, there are a few main reasons for most conversions.
1. Islam is a religious lifestyle, not just a quick Sunday morning church visit and a label. Although some Christians do pray before each meal and spend much time with their Bible, etc...many don't in the USA. Islam is something that can't be shunted into a few spare hours. You pray five times a day. Your dress code is affected, even your food choices are explained in the Qur'an. Many converts like it because they feel actively involved and as if they are truly religious.
2. For women, it is a big and welcome change from the "in your face" sexuality of western culture. Women are not required by the Qur'an to veil. They are required to dress modestly and it is *recommended* that they cover their hair. However, most do veil and some go farther with niquab (the face screen) or other traditional clothes . Women dressed like this consider themselves marked as religious women, not easy dates. They don't get hit on. No one gawks at their bodies. They are clearly off limits sexually and many that I personally know say it is liberating not to have to conform to western standards of sexy dress, makeup and spending so much time and money on appearence. You buy a five dollar hijab, put your hair in a ponytail and cover, wear long skirt and a tunic shirt -you're set.
3. Islam is also growing because many people are not satisfied with Christianity. They feel it is too liberal, too fluid and changes for the culture. Islam on the other hand is more rigid and does not as a whole allow much for modern changes and the whims of society. Many like it because they feel other religions have loose standards.
That's what I got from the new Muslimah's group at Yahoo, Islamway women's board and a few other friends of mine. Stats taken by many college groups say that women convert 4 times more often then men.
This is an example:
Why Are Women Turning to Islam
At a time when Islam is faced with hostile media coverage particularly where the status of women in Islam is concerned, it may be quite surprising to learn that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and even more ironic to discover that the majority of converts to Islam are WOMEN .
The status of women is society is neither a new issue nor is it a fully settled one, and where Islam is mentioned, for many the term 'Muslim Women' prompts images of exhausted mothers chained to the stove, 'victims' suppressed in a life of indoctrination, frantic to be westernized and so on. Others will go to great lengths to explain how the hijaab is an obstacle, clouding the mind, and comment that female converts are either brainwashed, stupid or traitors to their sex. I reject such accusations and pose to them the following question: why is it that so many women who have been born and brought in the so called 'civilized' societies of Europe and America are willing to reject their 'liberty' and 'independence' to embrace a religion that supposedly oppresses them and is widely assumed to be prejudicial to them?
As a Christian convert to Islam, I can only present my personal experience and reasons for rejecting the 'freedom' that women claim to have in this society in favour of the only Religion that truly liberates women by giving us a status and position which is completely unique when compared with that of non-muslim counterparts. Before coming to Islam, I had strong feminist tendencies and recognized that where the women was concerned, a lot of shuffling around had been going on, yet without being able to pin her on the social map. The problem was ongoing: new 'women's issues' being raised without the previous ones being satisfactorily resolved. Like the many women who shared my background, I would accuse Islam of being a sexist religion, discriminating, oppressing and giving men the greater privileges. All this coming from a person who did not even know Islam, one who had been blinded due to ignorance and had accepted this deliberately distorted definition of Islam.
_
However, despite my criticisms of Islam, inwardly I wasn't satisfied with my own status as a women in this society. It seemed to me that society would define such terms as 'liberty' and 'freedom' and then these definitions were accepted by women without us even attempting to question or challenge them. There was clearly a great contradiction between what women were told in theory and what actually happens in practice._ The more I pondered, the greater emptiness I felt within. I was slowly beginning to reach a stage where my dissatisfaction with my status as a women in this society, was really a reflection of my greater dissatisfaction with society itself. Everything seemed to be degenerating backwards, despite the claims that the 2000 was going to be the decade of success and prosperity. Something vital seemed to be missing from my life and nothing would fill this vacuum. Being a Christian did not do anything for me, and I began to question the validity of only remembering God one day a week - Sundays! As with many other Christians too, I had become disillusioned with the hypocrisy of the Church and was becoming increasingly unhappy with the concept of Trinity and the deification of Jesus. Eventually, I began to look into Islam. At first, I was only interested in looking at those issues which specifically dealt with women. I was surprised. What I read and learned taught me a lot about myself as a woman, and also about where the real oppression of women lies: in every other system and way of life outside of Islam. Muslim women have been given their rights in every aspect of the religion with clear definitions of their role in society - as had men - with no injustice against either of them. As Allah says: Whoever does deeds of righteousness, be they male or female, and have faith, they will enter paradise and not the least injustice will be done to them [Nisaa 4:124]
So having amended my misconceptions about the true status of women in Islam, I was now looking further. I wanted to find that thing which was going to fill the vacuum in my life. My attention was drawn towards the beliefs and practices of Islam. It was only through establishing the fundamentals that I would understand where to turn and what to prioritize. These are often the areas which receive little attention or controversy in society, and when studying the Islamic Creed, it becomes clear why this is the case: such concise, faultless and wholly comprehensive details cannot be found elsewhere.
1. Islam is a religious lifestyle, not just a quick Sunday morning church visit and a label. Although some Christians do pray before each meal and spend much time with their Bible, etc...many don't in the USA. Islam is something that can't be shunted into a few spare hours. You pray five times a day. Your dress code is affected, even your food choices are explained in the Qur'an. Many converts like it because they feel actively involved and as if they are truly religious.
2. For women, it is a big and welcome change from the "in your face" sexuality of western culture. Women are not required by the Qur'an to veil. They are required to dress modestly and it is *recommended* that they cover their hair. However, most do veil and some go farther with niquab (the face screen) or other traditional clothes . Women dressed like this consider themselves marked as religious women, not easy dates. They don't get hit on. No one gawks at their bodies. They are clearly off limits sexually and many that I personally know say it is liberating not to have to conform to western standards of sexy dress, makeup and spending so much time and money on appearence. You buy a five dollar hijab, put your hair in a ponytail and cover, wear long skirt and a tunic shirt -you're set.
3. Islam is also growing because many people are not satisfied with Christianity. They feel it is too liberal, too fluid and changes for the culture. Islam on the other hand is more rigid and does not as a whole allow much for modern changes and the whims of society. Many like it because they feel other religions have loose standards.
That's what I got from the new Muslimah's group at Yahoo, Islamway women's board and a few other friends of mine. Stats taken by many college groups say that women convert 4 times more often then men.
This is an example:
Why Are Women Turning to Islam
At a time when Islam is faced with hostile media coverage particularly where the status of women in Islam is concerned, it may be quite surprising to learn that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and even more ironic to discover that the majority of converts to Islam are WOMEN .
The status of women is society is neither a new issue nor is it a fully settled one, and where Islam is mentioned, for many the term 'Muslim Women' prompts images of exhausted mothers chained to the stove, 'victims' suppressed in a life of indoctrination, frantic to be westernized and so on. Others will go to great lengths to explain how the hijaab is an obstacle, clouding the mind, and comment that female converts are either brainwashed, stupid or traitors to their sex. I reject such accusations and pose to them the following question: why is it that so many women who have been born and brought in the so called 'civilized' societies of Europe and America are willing to reject their 'liberty' and 'independence' to embrace a religion that supposedly oppresses them and is widely assumed to be prejudicial to them?
As a Christian convert to Islam, I can only present my personal experience and reasons for rejecting the 'freedom' that women claim to have in this society in favour of the only Religion that truly liberates women by giving us a status and position which is completely unique when compared with that of non-muslim counterparts. Before coming to Islam, I had strong feminist tendencies and recognized that where the women was concerned, a lot of shuffling around had been going on, yet without being able to pin her on the social map. The problem was ongoing: new 'women's issues' being raised without the previous ones being satisfactorily resolved. Like the many women who shared my background, I would accuse Islam of being a sexist religion, discriminating, oppressing and giving men the greater privileges. All this coming from a person who did not even know Islam, one who had been blinded due to ignorance and had accepted this deliberately distorted definition of Islam.
_
However, despite my criticisms of Islam, inwardly I wasn't satisfied with my own status as a women in this society. It seemed to me that society would define such terms as 'liberty' and 'freedom' and then these definitions were accepted by women without us even attempting to question or challenge them. There was clearly a great contradiction between what women were told in theory and what actually happens in practice._ The more I pondered, the greater emptiness I felt within. I was slowly beginning to reach a stage where my dissatisfaction with my status as a women in this society, was really a reflection of my greater dissatisfaction with society itself. Everything seemed to be degenerating backwards, despite the claims that the 2000 was going to be the decade of success and prosperity. Something vital seemed to be missing from my life and nothing would fill this vacuum. Being a Christian did not do anything for me, and I began to question the validity of only remembering God one day a week - Sundays! As with many other Christians too, I had become disillusioned with the hypocrisy of the Church and was becoming increasingly unhappy with the concept of Trinity and the deification of Jesus. Eventually, I began to look into Islam. At first, I was only interested in looking at those issues which specifically dealt with women. I was surprised. What I read and learned taught me a lot about myself as a woman, and also about where the real oppression of women lies: in every other system and way of life outside of Islam. Muslim women have been given their rights in every aspect of the religion with clear definitions of their role in society - as had men - with no injustice against either of them. As Allah says: Whoever does deeds of righteousness, be they male or female, and have faith, they will enter paradise and not the least injustice will be done to them [Nisaa 4:124]
So having amended my misconceptions about the true status of women in Islam, I was now looking further. I wanted to find that thing which was going to fill the vacuum in my life. My attention was drawn towards the beliefs and practices of Islam. It was only through establishing the fundamentals that I would understand where to turn and what to prioritize. These are often the areas which receive little attention or controversy in society, and when studying the Islamic Creed, it becomes clear why this is the case: such concise, faultless and wholly comprehensive details cannot be found elsewhere.
God revealed a holy book to Jesus called the Injeel, some parts of which may be still available in the teachings of God to Jesus in the New Testament. But this does not mean that the Bible we have today because it is not the original scriptures that were revealed by God. They underwent alterations, additions, and omissions. This was also said by the Committee charged with revising The Holy Bible (Revised Standard Version). This Committee consisted of thirty-two scholars who served as members of the Committee. They secured the review and counsel of an Advisory Board of fifty representatives of the co-operating denominations. The Committee said in the Preface to The Holy Bible (Revised Standard Version), p. iv, “Sometimes it is evident that the text has suffered in transmission, but none of the versions provides a satisfactory restoration. Here we can only follow the best judgment of competent scholars as to the most probable reconstruction of the original text.
The Committee also said in the Preface, p. vii, Notes are added which indicate significant variations, additions, or omissions in the ancient authorities (Mt 9.34; Mk 3.16; 7.4; Lk 24.32, 51, etc.).
The Committee also said in the Preface, p. vii, Notes are added which indicate significant variations, additions, or omissions in the ancient authorities (Mt 9.34; Mk 3.16; 7.4; Lk 24.32, 51, etc.).
Let there be no misunderstanding of my intentions. This post is not an assault on Christianity or any other religion.
It is indispensable for me to look for the truth and study comparative religion because if I would like to know whether a religion is true or false, I should not depend on my emotions, feelings, or traditions. Rather, I should depend on my reason and intellect. When God sent the prophets, He supported them with miracles and evidences, which proved that they were truly prophets, send by God and that the religion they came with was true.
My question is do we believe in the information declared in the following sites or not:
THE REAL STORY OF MARY
http://geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/3001/storyofmary.htm
THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS
http://sultan.org/articles/Jesus.html
Who Was Jesus According to Jesus?
http://www.islaminfo.com
IS THE BIBLE GODS WORD?
http://www.jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html
The Bible - A Closer Look!
http://www.todayislam.com/bible.htm
A List of Biblical Contradictions
http://sultan.org/articles/biblecon.txt
It is indispensable for me to look for the truth and study comparative religion because if I would like to know whether a religion is true or false, I should not depend on my emotions, feelings, or traditions. Rather, I should depend on my reason and intellect. When God sent the prophets, He supported them with miracles and evidences, which proved that they were truly prophets, send by God and that the religion they came with was true.
My question is do we believe in the information declared in the following sites or not:
THE REAL STORY OF MARY
http://geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/3001/storyofmary.htm
THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS
http://sultan.org/articles/Jesus.html
Who Was Jesus According to Jesus?
http://www.islaminfo.com
IS THE BIBLE GODS WORD?
http://www.jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html
The Bible - A Closer Look!
http://www.todayislam.com/bible.htm
A List of Biblical Contradictions
http://sultan.org/articles/biblecon.txt
In some aspects I agree with Cosmos Black. This could go on forever. Religion is a matter of faith, what I personally believe. Since I am American with middle eastern decent, I have many friends that are Muslim. Religion is what you make of it. Christianity, I agree, is an "easier" religion. All the Muslims I know are not devout. Many drink alcohol, none pray the required amount. I will visit the sights above sights and read, but it does not appear that you have linked any Christian sights. Anyone can find what they want to in the Bible.
Islam is frequently misunderstood and may even seem exotic in some parts of today's world. Perhaps this is because religion no longer dominates everyday life in Western society; whereas, for Muslims, Islam is life. Muslims make no artificial division between the secular and the sacred.
For quite some time Islam was thought of as some "Eastern" religion, but with the increasing number of Muslims living in the West, Islam is gradually being perceived as a global faith. Muslims are not thought of as strangers with unusual practices, but are being welcomed as part of the mosaic of life in the West. In many cases, Islam is not just viewed as an acceptable religion, but as a desired way of living.
For quite some time Islam was thought of as some "Eastern" religion, but with the increasing number of Muslims living in the West, Islam is gradually being perceived as a global faith. Muslims are not thought of as strangers with unusual practices, but are being welcomed as part of the mosaic of life in the West. In many cases, Islam is not just viewed as an acceptable religion, but as a desired way of living.
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