The fate of the US soldiers who abused Iraqi prisoners?

tool fan · May 12, 2004

I found this and it is true:

DERBYSHIRE AWARD NOMINEE: "I'm probably not the only one up at this table that is more outraged by the outrage than we are by the treatment. These prisoners, you know they're not there for traffic violations. If they're in cellblock 1-A or 1-B, these prisoners, they're murderers, they're terrorists, they're insurgents. Many of them probably have American blood on their hands and here we're so concerned about the treatment of those individuals." - Oklahoma senator, James Inhofe.

Everyone is entitled to decency, I agree, but we are not decapitating, burning ,hanging or dragging "MURDERED" Iraqi's through the streets. Islam preaches more peace than any other religion, these fanatics that call themselves "MEN" are a bunch of cowards. Yeah, our guys are pubicly humiliating the prisoners, not MURDERING them. So what! Cry a river, build a bridge and get over it. At least our soldiers did not cover their faces like a bunch of little bitches. I say open f#ckin season on anybody wearing a ski mask. If your ideals are so strong...don't hide and MURDER civilians that came to Iraq to HELP out the people...not to make a fortune, not related to the American Military force in any capacity. What these freaks did to Nick Berg was derelict and vile and completely uncalled for. Does Al Qeada actually believe that this will dampen or reduce American resolve....All these idiots did is further infuriate the soldiers that are down there.

America and Americans might not build a decent car, television, radio or whatever.....but I tell you what America and Americans are good at...............WAR and kickin' the shit out of meely mouthed hooded assholes....

aNoodle · May 12, 2004

I still am at a loss to understand the bait and switch on this topic. That OK Senator is walking the party line quite well. So, the prisoners deserved it? What sort of reasoning is that? Isn't that the sort of mentality that our islamic extremist enemies have? Aren't we better than that? Your posts are very well crafted political rhetoric...(gotta laugh at the "letter" to home from a soldier...sounds like a lawyer wrote that one...maybe even Rush). Since when do the Republicans and Democrats use our troops as pawns in their political disagreements? I've read some other "letters to home" saying almost the opposite. I think it needs to stop.

The administration and its Republican allies appear to have settled on a way to deflect attention from the torture of prisoners at Abu Ghraib: accuse Democrats and the news media of overreacting, then pile all of the remaining responsibility onto officers in the battlefield, far away from President Bush and his political team. That cynical approach was on display yesterday morning in the second Abu Ghraib hearing in the Senate, a body that finally seemed to be assuming its responsibility for overseeing the executive branch after a year of silently watching the bungled Iraq occupation.

The senators called one witness for the morning session, the courageous and forthright Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who ran the Army's major investigation into Abu Ghraib. But the Defense Department also sent Stephen Cambone, the under secretary of defense for intelligence, to upstage him. Mr. Cambone read an opening statement that said Donald Rumsfeld was deeply committed to the Geneva Conventions protecting the rights of prisoners, that everyone knew it and that any deviation had to come from "the command level." A few Republican senators loyally followed the script, like Senator James Inhofe of Oklahoma, who offered the astounding comment that he was "more outraged by the outrage" than by the treatment of prisoners. After all, he said, they were probably guilty of something.

These silly arguments not only obscure the despicable treatment of the prisoners, most of whom are not guilty of anything, but also ignore the evidence so far. While some of the particularly sick examples of sexual degradation may turn out to be isolated events, General Taguba's testimony, and a Red Cross report from Iraq, made it plain that the abuse of prisoners by the American military and intelligence agencies was systemic. The Red Cross said prisoners of military intelligence were routinely stripped, with their hands bound behind their backs, and posed with women's underwear over their heads. It said they were "sometimes photographed in this position."

The Red Cross report, published by The Wall Street Journal, said that Iraqi prisoners — 70 to 90 percent of whom apparently did nothing wrong — were routinely abused when they were arrested, and their wives and mothers threatened. The Iraqi police, who operate under American control and are eventually supposed to help replace the occupation forces, are even worse — sending those who won't pay bribes to prison camps, and beating and burning prisoners, according to the report.

The Red Cross said most prisoners were treated better once they got into the general population at the larger camps, except those who were held by military intelligence. "In certain cases, such as in Abu Ghraib military intelligence section, methods of physical and psychological coercion used by the interrogators appeared to be part of the standard operating procedures by military intelligence personnel," the report said.

It was alarming yesterday to hear General Taguba report that military commanders had eased the rules four times last year to permit guards to use "lethal force" on unruly prisoners. The hearing also disclosed that Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the commander in Iraq, had authorized the presence of attack dogs during interrogation sessions. It wasn't very comforting that he had directed that these dogs be muzzled.

These practices go well beyond any gray area of American values, international law or the Geneva Conventions. Mr. Cambone tried to argue that Mr. Rumsfeld had made it clear to everyone that the prisoners in Iraq were covered by those conventions. But Mr. Rumsfeld's public statements have been ambiguous at best, and General Taguba said that, in any case, the Abu Ghraib guards had received no training. All the senators, government officials and generals assembled in that hearing room yesterday could not figure out who had been in charge at Abu Ghraib and which rules applied to the Iraqi prisoners. How were untrained reservists who had been plucked from their private lives to guard the prisoners supposed to have managed it?

General Sanchez did give some misguided orders involving the Abu Ghraib prison and prisoners in general. But the deeply flawed mission in which he participates is the responsibility of the Bush administration. It was Mr. Bush and Mr. Rumsfeld, not General Sanchez, who failed to anticipate the violence and chaos that followed the invasion of Iraq, and sent American soldiers out to handle it without the necessary resources, manpower and training.

aNoodle · May 12, 2004

Bryan330i said:

Ha. Kinda funny to poke fun, but I don't consider Republicans as any less 'thinking' than Democrats or independents. Bush as antichrist is preposterous.

Bryan330i · May 12, 2004

Bigdaddy, this whole situation has become unbelievable.

YOU SAID: “I can hardly respond to your attack about people disagreeing with me from day one because it is so poorly written.”

I SAID: “Well, lets see, I seem to recall defending you twice against those attacking you for you’re writing ability. I will find the posts.”

YOU SAID: “Sorry Bryan330i I did not follow your train of thought regarding defending me.”

I am not going to continue arguments with you. You have sent me PMs and you know it! I will not post them because that would violate what I see as personal communications. You sent me a PM offering thanks for defending you when YOU were criticized for YOUR writing in September 2003. You objected then to those that were critical of you and you stated your reasons, yet now you take the same position as those that were critical of you?

You also wait for information to support claims that I have made. But at the same time all of these people are liberal idiots. The supporting information regarding Halliburton is widely available from a number of respected sources including The Wall Street Journal and a variety of other publications. What would be the point to continue if everything that is even slightly critical of the Bush administration is viewed by you as an attack by the liberals?

With regard to the bell curve voting patterns in the US, you made less than positive remarks about some individuals that have PhD’s, referring I believe to the people interviewed in the story regarding changing voting patterns.

Not only is there no winning here, which is not really the point, I don’t think that there is even a chance for reasonableness in our discussions.

I am not like some of the others you have drawn battle lines with in the past. I make a great deal in online purchases, unlike a very significant percentage of people whom only visit sites. I would estimate my personal online purchases exceed an average of $500.00 per month. I am also a Dun & Bradstreet rated purchaser in the 2.5-5.0 million bracket within the EXACT line of trade directly related to the board.

I certainly wish you the best and if you would be so kind as to permanently delete my membership from this board it would be greatly appreciated. I will not check back to see if this has been done but I will follow up with a letter in the mail as confirmation. [wave]

Big Daddy · May 12, 2004

Bryan330i said:

Bigdaddy, this whole situation has become unbelievable.

YOU SAID: “I can hardly respond to your attack about people disagreeing with me from day one because it is so poorly written.”

I SAID: “Well, lets see, I seem to recall defending you twice against those attacking you for you’re writing ability. I will find the posts.”

YOU SAID: “Sorry Bryan330i I did not follow your train of thought regarding defending me.”

Ok, so I said I did not follow your train of thought and when you explained it I apologized. I am not sure why you would be upset for me apologizing?

I am not going to continue arguments with you. You have sent me PMs and you know it!

Ok I have sent you PM's, and I thought we had quality communications in those PM's. I am not sure what your point is here?

I will not post them because that would violate what I see as personal communications. You sent me a PM offering thanks for defending you when YOU were criticized for YOUR writing in September 2003. You objected then to those that were critical of you and you stated your reasons, yet now you take the same position as those that were critical of you?

I am not sure I follow this either. Yes I was critical of those that were making issue with my spelling and others. I do not see how I am taking the same position as those that were critical of me?

You also wait for information to support claims that I have made. But at the same time all of these people are liberal idiots. The supporting information regarding Halliburton is widely available from a number of respected sources including The Wall Street Journal and a variety of other publications. What would be the point to continue if everything that is even slightly critical of the Bush administration is viewed by you as an attack by the liberals?

It is politics Bryan, just as everything I have said about the war and Pres. Bush you have objected to. You and I do not agree on Pres. Bush and the Iraq war, Ok that is not a reason to be upset. Many of us disagree on these two issues.

With regard to the bell curve voting patterns in the US, you made less than positive remarks about some individuals that have PhD’s, referring I believe to the people interviewed in the story regarding changing voting patterns.

I am really not sure what you mean here. I did say at one time that having a Phd does not mean you can tell me the world is flat. I stand by that statement. I once worked with a guy that was brilliant at what we did, he decided to get a Masters Degree and from there forward he was terrible at his job. I know several people like this. I am sorry that you are offended by this.

Not only is there no winning here, which is not really the point, I don’t think that there is even a chance for reasonableness in our discussions.

I am not like some of the others you have drawn battle lines with in the past. I make a great deal in online purchases, unlike a very significant percentage of people whom only visit sites. I would estimate my personal online purchases exceed an average of $500.00 per month. I am also a Dun & Bradstreet rated purchaser in the 2.5-5.0 million bracket within the EXACT line of trade directly related to the board.

Ok you spend a lot of money on line with BMW tuners, does this make your opinion more valuable?

I certainly wish you the best and if you would be so kind as to permanently delete my membership from this board it would be greatly appreciated. I will not check back to see if this has been done but I will follow up with a letter in the mail as confirmation. [wave]

Bryan I am really sorry you feel offended. This entire thread has been heated at times, but I do not see anone else requesting that their membership be deleted. I will refrain from anymore posts here so as not to offend, but seriously I was not attacking you. Re-read your posts, we are not that different, just on the opposite side of this topic.

aNoodle · May 12, 2004

Woe, Bryan...come back. How did you get so upset? OMG! I am positive you misread the tenor of BigD's posts. I hope you're not pissed at me cuz I said it's preposterous to say Bush can be compared to the antichrist.

Damn, people let themselves get so worked up about politics these days. Please come back, Bran, you made valuable contributions to the board. I'm going to miss your posts.

Jeez, what is it they say about conversations involving sex, religion, and politics?

Maybe I'll just stick to car chat from now on. Then again, Bangle is bound to come up and it's gonna get all heated again. Can't we all just get along? LOL

James · May 12, 2004

Big Daddy said:

Big Daddy, don't sweat it. I've re-read the posts and can't see how Bryan could get to this point. Move along everyone, nothing to see here...

Abdoman · May 12, 2004

I thought I might have pushed him over the edge?!? At least we have one less liberal spreading his opinion! JK [burnout]

MyHarley · May 12, 2004

Hi...........my name is Lisha............and I'm a Republican...... [rofl]

(P.S. in case you all didnt get my AA impression).........

I left the Astros game after 30 minutes because you all are so interesting... [80?]

Abdoman · May 12, 2004

tool fan · May 13, 2004

We really ought not wear our hearts on our sleeves when discussing the Values of politics religion or bangle.

aNoodle · May 13, 2004

tool fan said:

LOL

Bryan330i · May 13, 2004

I said I would not do this but I received a couple of PMs and a few direct email messages and thought I would drop a quick note. I take full responsibility for being out of control and out of line. Voluntarily leaving has nothing to do with being pushed over the edge or antichrist views (I am hardly the one to ask with my surface knowledge of the various religions).

Leaving is the correct and fair thing to do. It is what I have decided and is nothing more than a personal decision.

Big Daddy · May 13, 2004

Bryan330i said:

Very well said with dignity and honor,(although I am not saying you were "out of line") I applaud you!

MyHarley · May 13, 2004

How about just taking off for a week or something, then come back and join us again, besides you'll miss us as much as we will miss you.........pretend you're on vacation at some far away tropical island.......oh yeah, that's my dream.... [wiggle]

The fate of the US soldiers who abused Iraqi prisoners?

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