Forbidden thoughts about 9/11: The readers respond

PuShAkOv · Sep 14, 2003

Those very closely associated with 9/11 should not read this:

http://salon.com/mwt/feature/2002/09/11/forbidden_letters/index.html

Q: What's Osama bin Laden's favorite football team?

A: The New York Jets.

This is just another reason for people on the East Coast to feel more important than the rest of the country.

-- Name withheld

[:I]

"When I heard there was a terror attack downtown, I hoped the situation would degenerate into urban guerrilla warfare. I was really psyched to go out and kick some Islamist ass.

-- Dave Gottlieb, student"

Oh, it started before 9. The casualties will be investment bankers."

-- Name withheld, on a first thought noting that banking is one of the few professions in NYC that gets going before 9 a.m

On 9/11/01, I just kept going out to stare up at the sky. It was so quiet and empty -- and yes, actually beautiful -- without jets and vapor trails everywhere. What corner of Antarctica will I have to visit to to see another completely empty sky from horizon to horizon?

-- Name withheld

I was really annoyed with people saying, "I could have been there, blah blah." You weren't, so stop dwelling on it.

-- Meredith, 25, public relations executive in Washington

Big Daddy · Sep 14, 2003

Looks mostly like a bunch of sick uneducated people, attempting to spew their slanted misguided propaganda.

PuShAkOv · Sep 14, 2003

Big Daddy said:

Propaganda is what the Bush Administration is doing killing tens of thousands of people. Are we more special than other people of this planet? Since when does the death of 2.8 thousand a justification of invading other countries that had nothing to do with this local tragedy. We should try to improve our global relations and not screw ourselfs beyond hope. This is pathetic.

Big Daddy · Sep 14, 2003

PuShAkOv said:

Like I said "Looks mostly like a bunch of sick uneducated people, attempting to spew their slanted misguided propaganda." Admit to yourself that being nineteen years old you can not possibly know all this necessary to know in the this scenario. You are missing most of the puzzle, so quit trying to put it together with pieces you hear in the media, and communist dribble voiced by liberal democrats.

LoMo987 · Sep 14, 2003

I agree with Big Daddy people are retarded and uneducated. I lost three close people to me on Sept. 11th and for people to be concerned about the skies being cleared of airplanes is really f**ked up! We are just selfish people....from the comments posted on this webpage to Bush invading Iraq basically for oil. Yeah I am only 20 and I got a lot to learn......

Wadula · Sep 14, 2003

Big Daddy, sorry to jump in, but i think you are not right. i know that you might know more than others do, but i think it is even for you exaggerated to pretend to know all. do you know all? i doubt it. not even the president or the head of FBI or CIA know all.
furthermore it is an unfair treatment when you refer to his age of 19 and say that due to that he can not be knowledgable.

third, the main tenor of his words is, that he is not okay with the decisions his government made. accept or not, but don´t attack him like that. other countries with the same knowledge of the world are standing on the same side as he does.

Big Daddy · Sep 15, 2003

Wadula, read his post again. He accuses the Bush Administration of killing tens of thousands of people, is this a fact he has knowledge of, or is he repeating some media propaganda, or what? Where was his post denouncing the killers that attacked in our country? Where is his sense of justice, love, or respect for the dead and families of the dead? Instead he posts a link to some punk stating that he wishes his dad had died in NY. All his link is is to a bunch of people with warpped views of 9/11.

Then read mine again. Where did I say I knew all, in fact I said know all there is to know about this scenario, and even then I did not profess to know it all. Then you question me for referring to his age, and misquote me again by saying that I said due to his age he cannot be knowledgeable. I did not say that. I said at 19 years of age he could not know all there was to know about this scenario.

Can we agree that with age comes experience and in most cases wisdom? Can we agree that in my profession I was directly involved in some terrorists evaluations, some threat assement, and had some access to confidential information? No I do not know it all, but then again I do not post items that are hurtful to the moral of my country, or to citizens who's families were murdered by the thousands in their places of business, or to the president of my country who is doing the best job he can in this situation. More US citizens support President Bush than oppose him. Sure you have your right to your views (that is why my father fought in three wars and the military men of today are fighting in this one) but Push, nor anyone else has the right to outright lie about matters when they have no idea what the heck they are talking about.

I never saw a post by Push denouncing the killer of his own people? I never saw him post denouncing Bin Laden, but he finds time to post about a president who is trying hard to do the right thing. Push believes we should roll over and kiss these terrorists a**es so that we can "improve our global relations" and "not screw ourselves beyond hope." Every country we have fought we have rebuilt, every country today gets some kind of aid from the US, if they don't like us tough! You cannot negotiate with terrorists. These people will kill and die for shear pleasure.

Sorry for the long post and the lecture, but by God if you can't believe in this country and you hate it so much, what keeps you here? (freedom, opportunity, quality of life?)

Other countries are afraid of terrorists and to stand up for themselves, this is witnessed by history. And why am I wrong and he is right, I am just standing up for my country, isn't that one of my rights as well?

PuShAkOv · Sep 15, 2003

Don't be blind to the truth. It is not a crime to denounce your own country at its wrongs.

Kirby · Sep 15, 2003

Big Daddy said:

I'm with you 100% on that. When I was 20 I thought I knew everything. Now I realize how complicated the world really is.

Fresh out of college I worked on ELINT/SIGINT (electronic/signal intelligence) in the 80's cold war, all of which is very outdated information today. I was amazed at some of the information I saw. When I read a newspaper or watch the news, I realize I am getting only part of the intelligence we know, and the decisions have been based on a lot more infomation.

The general public is CLUELESS to some of the things going on out there that threaten the US and the WORLD in general, but it has to be that way. The phrase "You can't handle the truth!" comes to mind...

PuShAkOv · Sep 15, 2003

Don't you guys belong to the "general public".. and thus clueless?

Since I was raised in a foreign country and tend to look at U.S. from a more unbiased perspective, I tend not praise every propaganda-based speeches that come out of Bush's mouth (like most Americans), but the world as a whole. Most Americans are clueless because they are brain-washed from the biased media and believe anything that is thrown their way. How about rephrasing "War on Terror" to "War Using Terror". Any thoughts?

MyHarley · Sep 15, 2003

Being born an American citizen is a gift from God.............becoming an American citizen from another country is a privilege.

Bashing the President and his policies is just like a back seat driver.........if you think you can do it better, take over the wheel, until then just enjoy the ride instead of causing confusion and rhetoric. You'll get another chance to put someone else in office..........in the history of the United States, she has never failed to the point of no return. Start campaigning, get out the voters, be heard where it will do some good, not in the back seat. I of course will be out in front with the Bush party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [;)]

Abdoman · Sep 15, 2003

Push - the 9/11 attack was planned and carried out to kill innocent people. These people died while going to work with briefcases, not rifles, handguns or gernades. I think it's one thing to target a countries' military and quite another to target innocent civilians. Do you really think the US would have been as outraged and ready to go to war if they had targeted a military base? Do you remember the attack in Lebanon on the US military barracks? How about the attack on the USS Cole? When these soldiers died, it was tragic, but at the same time their job is protect and possibly die protecting the US. When the US finally decided to take care of this problem, I don't remember them purposely dropping bombs on civilian targets. If we had, we would NEVER hear the end of it from the anti-US countries and groups. Unfortunately, the US has made some mistakes. We are a big bully, but one that tries to make things safer and better for people around the world. If we didn't help, people would hate us just the same because we didn't help. What exactly did the US do to Bin Laden? Kill his family? Destroy his home? No, we insulted him! Hmmm....What's more just? Destoying his terror organization for killing 2.8K people or killing 2.8k people for an insult?

Kirby · Sep 15, 2003

PuShAkOv said:

1. No. By General Public, I meant those people who have no specific experience in world politics, intelligence gathering and analysis, military service, etc. or are not serious students of history. People in these groups have a better understanding of the behind the scenes actions.

2. You used the phrase "Most Americans" twice above. Where are you getting this information? According to the most recent USA Today Gallup Poll: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-09-11-poll-results_x.htm

"A thin majority, 52%, approve of the overall job he is doing, down from this year's high of 71% in mid-April, when the war in Iraq still had a glow of victory"

Last time I checked, 52% does not equal "Most". It seems to me that your statement is at best a "propaganda-based speech", or at worst, a clueless statement. So why is Big Daddy wrong by saying:
"...but Push, nor anyone else has the right to outright lie about matters when they have no idea what the heck they are talking about. "

junglestylz · Sep 15, 2003

PuShAkOv said:

I am not the general public. If you can't understand why we had the right to go after the people responsible, you shoud've been down there picking up. we had tnets with tarp's on the ground where you would try to piece human bodies together. I had to throw away my uniforms because the damn smell from that act wouldn't come out. May I also point out that this is not the sole occasion when something like this happened.

bearswife · Sep 15, 2003

I think it is rather comical that most of the people on here don't consider themselves part of the general public.
I also think that is it comical that you are talking about being 19 and unknowledgable. Because of the the fact that I am 19, read the news, and know a hell of alot about this country than a lot of people than the "general public" as you like to call it, I feel that I must defend all of the younger people on this board and everywhere. Granted at 19 I still have a lot to learn about life, but I still will at 30 too. You learn everyday. Because I am not 19 am i not allowed to have an opinion? And if you DO allow me to have one, will you not listen to it as if you were listening to someone older than I? I am old enough to vote for our next president, and I am old enough to give my life for my country. I wouldnt be given these rights by our federal government if they didnt think that I was at an age of maturity to do so.
I am 19, have a husband, a daughter, a job and a home. Most people who are 25 wish for what I have, but are too immature to have it. I guess because the best I can do, and the emotions I feel arent as important at that of my elders because I am only 19. I have lived through a war, i didnt fight in it, but i was aware of the repurcussions and much of what was involved. I saw just as much death, destruction and hatred as everyone else did on 9/11. I have a right to share my opinion and for it to be heard eventhough according to many I am not "educated" and dont have enough "worldly experience" at such a young age. Look at my life and evaluate it. You probably cant. I am the only one who truly knows what i have been through. If I were to write a response on that page that the link sent me to on the 1st post on this page, i bet you wouldnt be able to tell whether i was white, black, asian, 16 or 45! take an opinion for what it it worth, not who is saying it.

Abdoman · Sep 15, 2003

No offense to the young people of the board, but what Big Daddy is talking about is about growing up. There is no substitute for age and years of experience. Yes, you can be very intelligent at a very young age and have educated opinions, but experience means way more than young people can understand. I am 32, my brother is 18. He if very intelligent. We butt heads on a lot of different subjects, but so many of his opinions are based on what he reads, not what he has experienced.

Remember, at 18 the government trusts you to choose a President, but not to drink alcohol. Why is that??

Wadula · Sep 15, 2003

thanks bearswife, that is what i meant. the age of someone is not the factor that makes one knowing or not, and yes big daddy, your post said that being 19 means you don't know. if it refers to this scenario or another makes no difference. you said being 19 means not knowing. till to date we tried to keep age out of evaluation if a post is valuable or not. why is it different here?
Daddy, that part of your post sounded as if you meant it the way that i complained it sounded like. and as it seems i was not the only one to understand it that way. in that case i did not at all misinterprete or misquote you. If that is not the case, I am honestly sorry.
as far as the killing of lifes is concerned, yes that is wrong in my eyes too. bush had no right at all to go to iraq and start a war. period.

Furthermore i am pretty damn sure that push posted content bashing against the terrorists and bin laden. it is two years ago and you tell me you still know who posted what? we all did and we all still stay at the same position. all we say is that (we is the anti war people) this war was not justified nor needed.

Kirby · Sep 15, 2003

Bearswife:

Please don't read into what I am saying (others must speak for themselves). Nowhere did I refer to age, other than reflecting on MYSELF at 20 years old. Also note that I specifically referred to those who have been in military service (18 year olds included), students of history (could be a 12 or 16 year old, such as my daughters).

And my comments about the General Public being clueless may be taken out of context - ("The general public is CLUELESS to some of the things going on out there that threaten the US and the WORLD" ) . This was SPECIFICALLY quoting & responding to Big Daddy in the context of "access to confidential information", not saying that the Public is in general clueless. I stand behind that statement. When I first got my security clearance and saw some of the stuff during the Cold War, I couldn't sleep at night. And I am pretty damn sure that the same situation still applies today. Please re-read that post.

For what it's worth, the age of a person means very little to me when it comes to politics, debates, skills, etc. Some of my best friends and most respected co-workers are 22 - 30 years old. I have met 50 year olds that are less mature than my teenage daughters. What really matters to me is that someone has a good basis and solid argument for their opinion, and when they state something as factual ("most Americans") they can back it up with a reputable source. I fully respect everyone's right to a WELL-INFORMED opinion. I discount opinions based on Internet blogs, bitch posting boards, etc. As far as I am concerned, I would be posting the same thoughts here whether Push was 5, 19, 30, 80, or 115.

junglestylz · Sep 15, 2003

I am in no way bashing age, gender, or race. I just believe that this is a very dangerous topic, especially considering the fact that the vast majority of people in this forum, only know what they see on TV. As far as the propoganda topic goes. Let us not forget what the two of the three biggest propoganda spewing governments were Eurpoean. How do we know that people having the beliefs that they have, weren't brought on by propoganda of a different nature¿ In a way, just saying people fell for the "propoganda" of the american government is in fact spreading propoganda in it's own rights.

Kirby · Sep 15, 2003

junglestylz said:

Good point. I assume you are refering to France and Germany?

I was in Germany during the Iraqi War in April. I can speak first hand that there was plenty of coverage on TV and in the papers that could be interpreted as propaganda. I just never really thought about it in that context.

Forbidden thoughts about 9/11: The readers respond

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